A Sky, cable and digital tv forum. Digital TV Banter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » Digital TV Banter forum » Digital TV Newsgroups » uk.tech.digital-tv (Digital TV - General)
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

uk.tech.digital-tv (Digital TV - General) (uk.tech.digital-tv) Discussion of all matters technical in origin related to the reception of digital television transmissions, be they via satellite, terrestrial or cable. Advertising is forbidden, with no exceptions.

Global positioning



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old February 16th 18, 04:14 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
NY
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,329
Default Global positioning

"Clive Page" wrote in message ...

On 15/02/2018 21:01, Brian Gaff wrote:
is it me or have people nowadays simply got no technical knowledge of
how stuff works or how it does not work?
When I was young I always tried to grasp concepts if nothing else.


Me likewise, and not just when young. I think, sadly, that the phrase of
Arthur C Clarke "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable
from magic" applies here. Most people find modern devices simply
unfathomable and thus like magic and they have effectively given up trying
to understand them. This is such a pity.


Some years ago when SatNav systems first came out, a senior lecturer in my
university's science faculty said she didn't want to have one because she
didn't want her car's movements to be tracked. I explained that GPS units
only received satellite signals and didn't transmit. (Of course, now we
do have mobile-phone network linked systems for which the tracking fear is
more justified, but we didn't then.)


I have to admit that GPS is pretty indistinguishable from magic as far as I
am concerned - simply because the calculations and the allowances that have
to be made for general and special relativity make my brain hurt. I
understand the principles pretty well - that you measure the time delay
between a packet marked at known point in time as it leaves the satellite
and the time when we receive that packet of data, and calculate our position
from several such delays from different satellites whose positions are known
at that time - but the fine details are horrendous, as are the equations
that need to be applied to turn those delays into
latitude/longitude/altitude/velocity.

What intrigues me is that a lot of software (eg Viewranger for
Android/iPhone) discards the velocity reading in the GPS data and instead
tries to calculate it as (change in position) / (change in time) - which is
fine except that any error in position manifests itself as corresponding
errors in velocity, whereas the GPS velocity is much less affected by these
errors. Looking at graphs of derived velocity and GPS velocity for a GPS
track shows this very clearly: spiky versus smooth.

Ads
  #12  
Old February 16th 18, 05:41 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Peter Duncanson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,272
Default Global positioning

On Fri, 16 Feb 2018 16:10:34 +0000, Clive Page wrote:

On 15/02/2018 21:01, Brian Gaff wrote:
is it me or have people nowadays simply got no technical knowledge of how
stuff works or how it does not work?
When I was young I always tried to grasp concepts if nothing else.


Me likewise, and not just when young. I think, sadly, that the phrase of Arthur C Clarke "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" applies here. Most people find modern devices simply unfathomable and thus like magic and they have effectively given up trying to understand them. This is such a pity.


Part of the problem is that it is not possible to look inside a device
to see the parts and wonder what each part does.

When I was a boy (not reently) it was possible to explore the insides of
devices, radios, clocks, etc, and later TVs, and then find out what each
part did. That is no longer possible for modern stuff.


Some years ago when SatNav systems first came out, a senior lecturer in my university's science faculty said she didn't want to have one because she didn't want her car's movements to be tracked. I explained that GPS units only received satellite signals and didn't transmit. (Of course, now we do have mobile-phone network linked systems for which the tracking fear is more justified, but we didn't then.)


--
Peter Duncanson
(in uk.tech.digital-tv)
  #13  
Old February 16th 18, 06:20 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Jeff Layman[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 723
Default Global positioning

On 16/02/18 16:10, Clive Page wrote:
On 15/02/2018 21:01, Brian Gaff wrote:
is it me or have people nowadays simply got no technical knowledge of how
stuff works or how it does not work?
When I was young I always tried to grasp concepts if nothing else.


Me likewise, and not just when young. I think, sadly, that the phrase of Arthur C Clarke "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" applies here. Most people find modern devices simply unfathomable and thus like magic and they have effectively given up trying to understand them. This is such a pity.


Yes and no. How far do you go? I can understand a mechanical clock
turning its gear wheels around and measuring time that way, but what
about a digital clock. especially one connected via radio to an atomic
clock? Where do you start - vibrating Caesium atoms? Then radio theory,
then integrated circuits? Etc, etc. It all reminds me of that terrible
time when children go through that "Why?" phase. They ask why something
is the way it is; you explain it, but that leads to another "Why?", and
so on.

Some years ago when SatNav systems first came out, a senior lecturer in my university's science faculty said she didn't want to have one because she didn't want her car's movements to be tracked. I explained that GPS units only received satellite signals and didn't transmit. (Of course, now we do have mobile-phone network linked systems for which the tracking fear is more justified, but we didn't then.)


I expect that most SatNav systems enable tracking by default. I turned
this off on mine as soon as I found the SatNav recorded where I'd been,
or whether this really does stop it recording. I also have no idea
whether or not this "history" could be uploaded when the SatNav is
updated. Most modern cars now have a wifi connection (some via any
connected smartphone) so who can tell what is uploaded, and where it is
uploaded to?

--

Jeff
  #14  
Old February 16th 18, 08:17 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Java Jive[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,774
Default Global positioning

On 16/02/2018 12:28, Barclay Weir wrote:

Barclay Weir = BW = Bill Wright = BW = Bull****ting ******

Yes - but don't ask how his "Green" energy supplier separates and
filters out the nuclear generated electricity from the wind generated
electricity before delivering it to his house. 😊


Yet again our resident sufferer from mental Clostridium Difficile shoots
his off-topic bigoted diarrhoea all over a completely unrelated thread.

Stop treating this newsgroup as your personal sewer.

  #15  
Old February 16th 18, 08:19 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Java Jive[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,774
Default Global positioning

On 16/02/2018 12:52, NY wrote:

The worry is that some greenies might read this and believe it really
*is* possible ;-)


The REALLY worrying thing is how quickly you and others resort to
unthinking bigotry of which you ought to be ashamed.
  #16  
Old February 16th 18, 08:38 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Java Jive[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,774
Default Global positioning

On 16/02/2018 13:41, Bob Latham wrote:

Could not agree more. Total insanity, how do they get away with this
rubbish.


How does anyone in the bigoted sub-thread above get away with even worse
rubbish?

We need energy and to me nuclear fision is the only viable option


Strategically speaking, it's not viable for this country, because we
have no indigenous sources of fuel. I suggest that you go and look up
how much demand and supply is projected for nuclear fissile material,
the former is expected to exceed the latter within a decade, and then
think about how much nuclear material is to to be found in this country
= none worth speaking of. Then calculate how long the supplies that we
have already in the form of ex-warheads and spent fuel will last if the
HMG build all the nuclear power stations touted in the last policy
document of a decade or so back = from memory about 8 years. Then think
about the extra cost of reprocessing those supplies to extract fuel that
will last only 8 years. Then consider that even offshore wind is
already cheaper than nuclear fuel, and is likely to get cheaper, while
nuclear is likely to get more expensive, and that we still have under
our feet 200+ years of coal, and lesser quantities of other fossil fuels.

before fusion which will always be 20+ years away.


Yes, it's been 20+ years away for about 50+ years. Don't anybody even
think about it. It'll be great if really it ever does happen, but it's
a bit like winning the Premium Bonds, not something that you can plan on
happening. In its current state of research, you can't lay down
strategic energy plans for a nation based on significant use of nuclear
fusion.
  #17  
Old February 17th 18, 06:09 AM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Bill Wright[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,448
Default Global positioning

On 16/02/2018 21:17, Java Jive wrote:
On 16/02/2018 12:28, Barclay Weir wrote:

Barclay Weir = BW = Bill Wright = BW = Bull****ting ******

Yes - but don't ask how his "Green" energy supplier separates and
filters out the nuclear generated electricity from the wind generated
electricity before delivering it to his house. 😊


Yet again our resident sufferer from mental Clostridium Difficile shoots
his off-topic bigoted diarrhoea all over a completely unrelated thread.

Stop treating this newsgroup as your personal sewer.


At 12:28 on the 16th I was not in a position to contribute to this
newsgroup, as many of my friends here will know.

Bill
  #18  
Old February 17th 18, 07:42 AM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
charles[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 699
Default Global positioning

In article , Jim Lesurf
wrote:
In article , Johnny B Good
wrote:
The problem is largely because all of this marvellous Tech is a 'done
deal' that the Millenials just take for granted as a part of daily
life, using it for distractions like social media and TV adverts and
entertainment.


This phenomenon is not restricted to just Millenials. They just
demonstrate the effect to an even greater extreme than most of our own
generation whose main distraction was TV entertainment (and
advertising).


Civilisation is currently going to Hell in a hand basket, just like
*every* other civilisation before. We're, all of us (including our
"Golden Rulers") simply going along for the ride and there's almost
nothing we can do about it other than to make the best of it.


What I've done about it was to try and teach as many students as
possible, write books, magazine articles, etc, about science and how
technology works. Sadly, as you say, many don't even want to know, and
some prefer their myths.


example: Sortly before Christmas, my not-quite-5-year-old grandson was
taken to a woodland park which had been "decorated" for Christmas. At one
point there was a hump in the ground with coloured smoke coming out of a
hole. A girl of similar age said "Ooh, do you think there's a dragon
living there?". My grandson said "No it's just a smoke machine and
coloured lights". He'll go far.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
  #19  
Old February 17th 18, 08:30 AM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Jim Lesurf[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,326
Default Global positioning

In article , Peter Duncanson
wrote:
On Fri, 16 Feb 2018 16:10:34 +0000, Clive Page wrote:


On 15/02/2018 21:01, Brian Gaff wrote:
is it me or have people nowadays simply got no technical knowledge
of how stuff works or how it does not work? When I was young I always
tried to grasp concepts if nothing else.


Me likewise, and not just when young. I think, sadly, that the phrase
of Arthur C Clarke "Any sufficiently advanced technology is
indistinguishable from magic" applies here. Most people find modern
devices simply unfathomable and thus like magic and they have
effectively given up trying to understand them. This is such a pity.


Part of the problem is that it is not possible to look inside a device
to see the parts and wonder what each part does.


When I was a boy (not reently) it was possible to explore the insides of
devices, radios, clocks, etc, and later TVs, and then find out what each
part did. That is no longer possible for modern stuff.


Sadly, true on at least two levels. Sealed cases with no obvious way to
open them short of breakage. Then inside a set of tiny surface mount ICs
wit mysterious part numbers. Often ones where no details of the content is
public.

50 years ago makers might be proud to have provided a circuit diagram to
show you that they thought their design was a good one and to help the
buyer.

Now they rely on the 'magic' to hike the price and prevent repairs from
delaying your buying the latest model.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa...o/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

  #20  
Old February 17th 18, 08:34 AM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Jim Lesurf[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,326
Default Global positioning

In article , Jeff Layman
wrote:

Yes and no. How far do you go? I can understand a mechanical clock
turning its gear wheels around and measuring time that way, but what
about a digital clock. especially one connected via radio to an atomic
clock? Where do you start - vibrating Caesium atoms? Then radio theory,
then integrated circuits? Etc, etc. It all reminds me of that terrible
time when children go through that "Why?" phase. They ask why something
is the way it is; you explain it, but that leads to another "Why?", and
so on.


When they ask "Why?" questions, tell them you will only answer "How?" ones.
Then explain that people have written millions of books containing most of
the answers. If you can, then take them to the library. :-)

Teach a man to fish...

Another 'dumbing down' factor in the UK now is the rapid loss of local
libraries, and the drying up of funds that lets those which remain buy more
books.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa...o/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:46 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.SEO by vBSEO 2.4.0
Copyright 2004-2018 Digital TV Banter.
The comments are property of their posters.