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LCD TV picture quality



 
 
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  #11  
Old December 29th 06, 10:44 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Josey
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 58
Default LCD TV picture quality


wrote in message

I've just bought a new 40" Samsung LCD TV. On setting it up....

1. Put the Skydigibox into RGB mode, not composite..
2. Put the TV display mode into "cinema" setting.
3. Turn "power save" to low.
4. Turn off dynamic dimming (google how to do this, I forget thekey sequence
to get into the maintenance menu, but it's posted in the thread below for
sure).
5. Sit at least 12 feet away from it. If you need to sit closer, get a
smaller TV.
6. read this thread for lots more tuning tips:
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/s...&page=20&pp=25.

I know someone with a big Samsung R7 and it works pretty well on RGB from an
old Sky box, as long as you are not sat too close.

Jc.



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  #12  
Old December 30th 06, 09:31 AM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6
Default LCD TV picture quality

Didn't you get chance
to see a real TV picture on it before you bought it?

Yes I did - and it was fine. I since went back to the shop and looked
again - and at all the others too - and they aren't bad like mine at
all. There's a slightly noticeable quality loss when looked at closely,
but not like mine.

Does anyone have experience of Sky HD on a large LCD screen? Seems the
HD channels themselves are likely to be OK, but I'm not going to
subscribe to it if the non-HD channels aren't going to be any better at
all. Any suggestions anyone?






Josey wrote:
wrote in message

I've just bought a new 40" Samsung LCD TV. On setting it up....

1. Put the Skydigibox into RGB mode, not composite..
2. Put the TV display mode into "cinema" setting.
3. Turn "power save" to low.
4. Turn off dynamic dimming (google how to do this, I forget thekey sequence
to get into the maintenance menu, but it's posted in the thread below for
sure).
5. Sit at least 12 feet away from it. If you need to sit closer, get a
smaller TV.
6. read this thread for lots more tuning tips:
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/s...&page=20&pp=25.

I know someone with a big Samsung R7 and it works pretty well on RGB from an
old Sky box, as long as you are not sat too close.

Jc.


  #13  
Old December 30th 06, 10:24 AM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Chas Gill
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 427
Default LCD TV picture quality


wrote in message
oups.com...
Didn't you get chance

to see a real TV picture on it before you bought it?

Yes I did - and it was fine. I since went back to the shop and looked
again - and at all the others too - and they aren't bad like mine at
all. There's a slightly noticeable quality loss when looked at closely,
but not like mine.

Does anyone have experience of Sky HD on a large LCD screen? Seems the
HD channels themselves are likely to be OK, but I'm not going to
subscribe to it if the non-HD channels aren't going to be any better at
all. Any suggestions anyone?


Yes - on a Bravia 40 inch X series. The HD channels are OK sometimes! A
lot depends on the quality of the original material - and quite a lot of
so-called HD programming from Sky is in fact scaled-up SD material, which is
perceived to be somewhat fuzzy. Remember that there are only 10 or so HD
channels at present. The BBC HD trial channel is by far the best but it is
really a demo channel which shows complete programmes now and again -
although they are well worth the watching. HD movies are generally very
good too (only 2 of them, though, if you don't count pay-per-view).

Generally I'm disappointed with my set-up. Most of the material I watch is
576p (cos that's what most of it is) and on my very good LCD panel you can
actually see the lines! You need to be at least 10-12 feet away for your
perception of the picture quality picture to be as "good" as, say, a 32 inch
CRT looks at half that distance. In my own case this has made viewing from
a distance more pleasurable (the old 32 inch WEGA was a great TV but the
picture was a bit small from 12 feet away), but viewing close up is a lot
less pleasurable (compression artefacts didn't really show up on the WEGA
and the picture was always sharp). I have moved my favourite viewing
armchair back by one metre from it's usual position but this is still not
enough. I make the point of watching as much as I can in HD, (probably
about 20 - 25%) but this "conditions" my expectations so that the SD
channels look even ****tier! If I am watching a channel that is also
broadcast on Digital Terrestrial then that's where I will watch it, because
(on my TV at least) the quality of the DTV picture is significantly better
than the same programme via Sky.

DVD's, by the way, are OK and I've heard that the later model DVD players
with HDMI outputs do a good job of getting the absolute best out of the DVD
format. I'm intending to try one of those to see if it's true.

All of which is a very long-winded way of saying that HD is great (but of
limited availability) and the rest is worse than you are (probably)
currently used to. In engineering terms picture quality is better, in that
an HD panel displays a lot more detail faithfully. Thing is, though, you
really don't want to see this "detail", which is the physical manifestation
of all of the shortcomings of the SD medium combined with the inevitable
results of data compression. If you are expecting to enjoy watching non-HD
material on a big screen you will be disappointed.

Cheers

Chas


  #14  
Old December 30th 06, 10:53 AM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6
Default LCD TV picture quality

All these replies are really helpful - thanks. Well, they're helpful in
making me understand the problem - but it seems there's no solution to
it. I don't want to splash out even more money on HD if it just
highlights the deficiencies on standard channels even more. I'm sat as
far away from the TV as my living room walls will allow and Currys
won't give me a refund or exchange because the TV is 'not defective' -
and because it looks so good from DVD, I can't really argue with that.

I've tried the various different settings alterations suggested here
and none of them have made much, if any, difference. If anything can
come from this, it should be that anyone considering a 40"+ LCD TV
should think twice unless they're viewing it from miles away (although
even from the other end of my room, the deficiencies are still
obvious). I'll just resign myself to having wasted the money and just
try to get used to the poor picture.

But if anyone else has any suggestions/experiences of this sort of
problem, I'd still be interested in reading them.




Chas Gill wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
Didn't you get chance

to see a real TV picture on it before you bought it?

Yes I did - and it was fine. I since went back to the shop and looked
again - and at all the others too - and they aren't bad like mine at
all. There's a slightly noticeable quality loss when looked at closely,
but not like mine.

Does anyone have experience of Sky HD on a large LCD screen? Seems the
HD channels themselves are likely to be OK, but I'm not going to
subscribe to it if the non-HD channels aren't going to be any better at
all. Any suggestions anyone?


Yes - on a Bravia 40 inch X series. The HD channels are OK sometimes! A
lot depends on the quality of the original material - and quite a lot of
so-called HD programming from Sky is in fact scaled-up SD material, which is
perceived to be somewhat fuzzy. Remember that there are only 10 or so HD
channels at present. The BBC HD trial channel is by far the best but it is
really a demo channel which shows complete programmes now and again -
although they are well worth the watching. HD movies are generally very
good too (only 2 of them, though, if you don't count pay-per-view).

Generally I'm disappointed with my set-up. Most of the material I watch is
576p (cos that's what most of it is) and on my very good LCD panel you can
actually see the lines! You need to be at least 10-12 feet away for your
perception of the picture quality picture to be as "good" as, say, a 32 inch
CRT looks at half that distance. In my own case this has made viewing from
a distance more pleasurable (the old 32 inch WEGA was a great TV but the
picture was a bit small from 12 feet away), but viewing close up is a lot
less pleasurable (compression artefacts didn't really show up on the WEGA
and the picture was always sharp). I have moved my favourite viewing
armchair back by one metre from it's usual position but this is still not
enough. I make the point of watching as much as I can in HD, (probably
about 20 - 25%) but this "conditions" my expectations so that the SD
channels look even ****tier! If I am watching a channel that is also
broadcast on Digital Terrestrial then that's where I will watch it, because
(on my TV at least) the quality of the DTV picture is significantly better
than the same programme via Sky.

DVD's, by the way, are OK and I've heard that the later model DVD players
with HDMI outputs do a good job of getting the absolute best out of the DVD
format. I'm intending to try one of those to see if it's true.

All of which is a very long-winded way of saying that HD is great (but of
limited availability) and the rest is worse than you are (probably)
currently used to. In engineering terms picture quality is better, in that
an HD panel displays a lot more detail faithfully. Thing is, though, you
really don't want to see this "detail", which is the physical manifestation
of all of the shortcomings of the SD medium combined with the inevitable
results of data compression. If you are expecting to enjoy watching non-HD
material on a big screen you will be disappointed.

Cheers

Chas


  #15  
Old December 30th 06, 11:06 AM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
David Hearn
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 223
Default LCD TV picture quality

{{{{{Welcome}}}}} wrote:
Thus spaketh :
{{{{{Welcome}}}}} wrote:
I've just bought a new 40" Samsung LCD TV. On setting it up, I
discovered the quality of the picture is pretty bad. Vertical lines
across the entire picture, blurry edges to figures on the TV and a
kind of pixellated effect that all adds up to a pretty poor quality
picture. I asked in the shop, and they said it was probably a bad
quality scart lead, so I bought a top-quality new one - but no
difference.

When watching a DVD, it's fine - it's just the picture that's coming
from my standard Sky digital box. So I spoke to Sky about it and
they say I should upgrade to Sky+ or Sky HD as the signal from
standard Sky looks poor on large screens. Is this true? Or is this
just them trying to sell me something extra? Having just blown all
my savings on the TV, the thought of spending an extra 300 on an
HD box is terrifying. Does anyone have any advice? Is there
anything I can do to improve picture quality? And has anyone else
experienced poor quality from Sky after buying a large screen TV?


LCD do show up poor quality pictures, also LCD TVs aren't great
either, better off with a CRT TV.

Snake Oil used to sell a scart lead that will make no difference to a
good quality fully screened 5 one.

Most digital channels are highly compressed, so are only really good
on a small screen, CRT TVs are better able to cope with the low
quality picture.

At the moment Sky HD channels are no too compressed, so watching a HD
channel even on a non-HD screen will look better than a ropey SD
picture.

Many TVs have all types of digital processing, some CRTs with 100Hz,
all these need switching off and dropping to 50Hz when watching
digital as it just makes a worse mess.

You aren't going to get as crisp a picture from LCD as you do CRT,
but like CRT with LCDs there are differences between models, whereas
mostly you can get away with a cheap CRT, with LCD you need to pay a
decent amount to get anywhere a good picture.

Mainly what you are seeing is a highly compressed digital broadcast
blown up added to the fact the LCD will be having to resample the
picture to fit its own resolution.

That is a helpful reply, thanks. More sense than I've got from Currys,
and Sky put together. It would make sense that what I'm seeing is a
compressed signal expanded - it's almost like when you take a digital
jpeg photo and expand it beyond its natural size - that's the kind of
effect I'm getting with the picture.


Yeah, that is the effect you are getting, it's like taking a 480 x 240
50% compressed JPEG and then blowing it up to 1440 x 720.

Question is now, what to do about it? Is the signal from Sky+ or Sky
HD less compressed than the standard Sky signal? And if I get HD,
will it only be better on the HD channels - and the same on all the
others? If so, that's no good really. The people at Sky say that,
with HD, you're getting all channels at SKY+ quality and the HD
specific channels at the even better HD quality. Do you reckon that's
true?


The standard definition channels (the vast majority) will be the same as
you get now with a standard box on both the Sky+ and Sky HD as these
boxes simply receive the same SD channels.

If you watch the HD versions of the channels, currently only a handful,
then these will look better than the SD versions whether you watch them
on a HD screen or SD screen, obviously they will look better with a HD
screen than a SD screen, but as the SD channels are highly compressed
then watching HD on a SD screen is better than SD on SD.



The TV I've got is this one:
http://www.dixons.co.uk/martprd/product/seo/951546

Supposedly it's a pretty decent one, but that's according to the
salesman that flogged it to me!

Thanks again


I've heard Samsung are OK, but as I'm waiting for True HD panels to come
down in price and the quality to improve, so I get a crisp picture like
I do from my CRT, I haven't paid much attention to which is better than
the other.

The product you link to has a resolution of 1366 x 768 which is quite
common, these are PC panels used in TVs to use up old stock. The screen
will have to upsample SD resolution and either upsample or downsample HD
resolution to fit.

HD is either 1280 x 720 or 1920 x 1080.


This is something I've often wondered about - how many of these displays
give you the option, rather than to up or down scale, but to just
letterbox instead? 1280x720 will letterbox into 1366x768 quite easily
(24 pixels of black top and bottom may not be noticed, although the 43
each side may be.). I'm sure it'll look much better than upscaling to
non-integer pixel sizes.

D
  #16  
Old December 30th 06, 01:05 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
harrogate3
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 219
Default LCD TV picture quality

If anyone here is unsure of what 'digital compression' is, going along
to your local Currys and look at football on the HDTV demo.

When the picture is static (i.e. not much happening) you will see the
grass and shirt detail very well: when the game flows the grass
becomes a smooth green mat with no detail, and the shirts not only
loose detail but also often get a colour fringe if there is a colour
step change. You will also notice that the HDTV demos from DVD NEVER
have anything that moves quickly - else you might see the deficiences
and not buy it!

It has to be said that these effects are visible on both LCD/Plasma
and CRT, just more noticable on LCD.


--
Woody

harrogate3 at ntlworld dot com


  #17  
Old December 30th 06, 01:42 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Alan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 927
Default LCD TV picture quality

In message , harrogate3
wrote


You will also notice that the HDTV demos from DVD NEVER
have anything that moves quickly - else you might see the deficiences
and not buy it!


That's why you will see a lot of shops only displaying cartoons or
computer generated graphics.


--
Alan
news2006 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com
  #18  
Old December 30th 06, 02:20 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6
Default LCD TV picture quality

I've just rung Sky and asked them directly, will getting HD improve the
picture and the guy said no. There's no difference in the signal with
HD on normal channels. Totally contradictory to what they told me first
time round.



Alan wrote:
In message , harrogate3
wrote


You will also notice that the HDTV demos from DVD NEVER
have anything that moves quickly - else you might see the deficiences
and not buy it!


That's why you will see a lot of shops only displaying cartoons or
computer generated graphics.


--
Alan
news2006 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com


  #20  
Old December 30th 06, 07:10 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Michael Chare
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 856
Default LCD TV picture quality

"Chas Gill" wrote in message
...


If I am watching a channel that is also
broadcast on Digital Terrestrial then that's where I will watch it, because
(on my TV at least) the quality of the DTV picture is significantly better
than the same programme via Sky.


If you see a noticable difference between satellite and terrestrial versions of
the BBC, ITV and other common channels I would suggest that this is due to your
equipment. Could be that either the output from a STB is wrong - or the a scart
socket on the TV is wrong.

(Leaving aside compression artefacts)


--

Michael Chare





 




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