Brian McIlwrath wrote:
DAB sounds worse than FM wrote:

Yes, but look at the advertising might of the BBC; we've bought about
5.5 million DTT set-top boxes since Freeview was launched, so they
could get the numbers up pretty quickly. Not to the numbers with Sky,
obviously, but Freesat is supposed to be a completely different
"package" to Sky's package.

I would still argue that it's completely different to Freeview -
which was sold on the basis of it being "free" and (rather less
accurately) "using the existing aerial". Freesat will need a
satellite dish installed (say ~£80-£100 with no subsidy) - people
have proved resistant to that even for Sky!!

Will Freesat *really* sell in sufficient numbers for a wide range of
STBs to become available (and for the BBC to support two versions of
the EPG plus text and multiscreen) - or will they just do a deal with
Sky to allow the Sky EPG and text system to be built into other
receivers?


I don't know what they'll do about the EPG to be honest, but I think
Freesat with HDTV could sell in sufficient numbers for a wide range of
STBs to become available. Just look at the BBC's advertising of Freeview
and DAB, it's bordering on brainwashing. They basically advertise us to
the point of submission.


--
Steve - www.digitalradiotech.co.uk - Digital Radio News & Info

Find the cheapest Freeview, DAB & MP3 Player Prices:
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/fr..._receivers.htm
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/da...tal_radios.htm
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...rs_1GB-5GB.htm
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...e_capacity.htm

Brian McIlwrath wrote:
Will Freesat *really* sell in sufficient numbers for a wide range of
STBs to become available (and for the BBC to support two versions of
the EPG plus text and multiscreen) - or will they just do a deal with
Sky to allow the Sky EPG and text system to be built into other receivers?

The interesting thing Brian is that, while we "lead the world" in DVB-T
(so it's our market that has driven the manufacture of DVB-T boxes)
we're a long way behind the rest of Europe when it comes to FTA and FTV
DSat programming.

DSat boxes at a level comparable to typical £30-80 Freeview box are
already plentiful and well developed. The standards are well developed
too. So the STBs aren't a problem.

Do the BBC want to make use of these existing standards-compliant STBs?
If so, they'll have to make their DSat services work with them (without
breaking compatibility with Sky boxes). Otherwise, they're just playing
further into the Sky monopoly, which seems like madness to me.

Cheers,
David.

wrote:

: The interesting thing Brian is that, while we "lead the world" in DVB-T
: (so it's our market that has driven the manufacture of DVB-T boxes)
: we're a long way behind the rest of Europe when it comes to FTA and FTV
: DSat programming.

We only "lead" as we were first! Just WHY should the UK return to DSAT
as a majority FTA reception medium when Freeview has been such a success?

: DSat boxes at a level comparable to typical £30-80 Freeview box are
: already plentiful and well developed. The standards are well developed
: too. So the STBs aren't a problem.

No - but I would *STILL* argue that there is just no market for Freesat!
If people want extra channels then the Freeview offering is *FAR* superior
(as many channels that are FTA on Freeview are not so on DSAT) - and the
attraction of using the existing UHF aerial is immense.

Just *WHO* are the people who would be prepared to install a satellite
dish on their house (at an installation cost greater than you claim that
STBs now sell for) for a far inferior channel offering? Even if there is
a TINY market (in non-Freeview areas) in the UK it is further distorted by
the easy and cheap access to second-hand Sky STBs at very little cost!

: Do the BBC want to make use of these existing standards-compliant STBs?

I see no reason why they should want to!

Brian McIlwrath wrote:
wrote:

The interesting thing Brian is that, while we "lead the world" in
DVB-T (so it's our market that has driven the manufacture of DVB-T
boxes) we're a long way behind the rest of Europe when it comes to
FTA and FTV DSat programming.

We only "lead" as we were first! Just WHY should the UK return to DSAT
as a majority FTA reception medium when Freeview has been such a
success?


It says this in the BBC's Annual Report:

"Last year we identified extending the
availability of the BBC's digital services
as a priority for 2004/2005. Freeview
continues to be a success with total sales
now over 6.6 million. With potential
coverage of digital terrestrial now at
its maximum (for technical reasons)
of 73% of the UK population until digital
switchover, the BBC's efforts this year
have been directed at investigating the
viability of alternative free-to-air platforms,
including satellite, with a view to launch
in 2005/2006."

DTT coverage can only be increased from 73% *after* digital switchover,
which means over a quarter of all households can't use it, which means
they either have to get cable (non-FTA), IPTV (non-FTA, presumably) or
satellite, so the only other option for FTA is satellite.


DSat boxes at a level comparable to typical £30-80 Freeview box are
already plentiful and well developed. The standards are well
developed too. So the STBs aren't a problem.

No - but I would *STILL* argue that there is just no market for
Freesat!


There will be once the BBC generates a market.


If people want extra channels then the Freeview offering is
*FAR* superior


Not if you cannot receive it!


(as many channels that are FTA on Freeview are not so
on DSAT) - and the attraction of using the existing UHF aerial is
immense.

Just *WHO* are the people who would be prepared to install a satellite
dish on their house (at an installation cost greater than you claim
that STBs now sell for) for a far inferior channel offering?


It might not be as inferior as it is now if the BBC can convince ITV, C4
and five to go along with them. Also, FTA DSat has over 80 radio
stations, and HDTV will be a big draw.



--
Steve - www.digitalradiotech.co.uk - Digital Radio News & Info

Find the cheapest Freeview, DAB & MP3 Player Prices:
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/fr..._receivers.htm
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/da...tal_radios.htm
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...rs_1GB-5GB.htm
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...e_capacity.htm

Brian McIlwrath wrote:
wrote:

: The interesting thing Brian is that, while we "lead the world" in DVB-T
: (so it's our market that has driven the manufacture of DVB-T boxes)
: we're a long way behind the rest of Europe when it comes to FTA and FTV
: DSat programming.

We only "lead" as we were first! Just WHY should the UK return to DSAT
as a majority FTA reception medium when Freeview has been such a success?

Are you asking me to point out all the technical and economic
advantages of FTA DSat over FTA DTT for fixed reception of TV
programming? Or the advantages of having two competing or complementary
FTA systems rather than just one? I'm sure the answers to both
questions are obvious.

No - but I would *STILL* argue that there is just no market for Freesat!
If people want extra channels then the Freeview offering is *FAR* superior
(as many channels that are FTA on Freeview are not so on DSAT) - and the
attraction of using the existing UHF aerial is immense.

Hang on a second - you're comparing the channel line up on a service
which hasn't launched yet (which, strangely enough, isn't great!), to
the channel line up on a service which has been running for nearly two
years. The FTA channel line up on _DTT_ wasn't so great when it was
primarily a pay-TV platform, but that changed rapidly when FTA was
promoted.

Just *WHO* are the people who would be prepared to install a satellite
dish on their house (at an installation cost greater than you claim that
STBs now sell for) for a far inferior channel offering? Even if there is
a TINY market (in non-Freeview areas) in the UK it is further distorted by
the easy and cheap access to second-hand Sky STBs at very little cost!

The latter is a good point - it's certainly the route I would take at
the moment - but it's hardly something you can market like "Freeview",
or sell in Tesco. How far would Freeview have got if it would only ever
have used second hand OnDigital boxes? Do you think we would see ITV2,3
and 4 on there FTA? I doubt it! So Freesat deserves the same.

The obvious market now is the 25% of the population who can't receive
Freeview, who have no choice. You can't discount this market - even Sky
think it's worth tapping into.

Then there's the people who require an external aerial upgrade to
receive Freeview - that makes the cost of DSat and DTT comparable.

Then there's the people who are quite happy to try to fit a dish
themselves - some people might worry about aiming it correctly, but
then some people might worry about climbing onto their roof and
installing a high gain aerial on a 10ft pole! If you can get Freeview
with a loft aerial and existing cabling then it's easier to DIY, but if
you can't, then DSat could be a better DIY bet.

The obvious market now and further down the line are people who realise
that Freeview is always second best. The interactive content especially
is restricted compared with DSat. (It sounds irrelevant until it's
something _you_ want to watch that's missing from DTT, even though it's
advertised every evening on BBC1, which just happens to show the
superior DSat version!). HD on DTT is going to be restricted (if it's
on there at all!) compared with DSat. The situation may improve, but
it's hard to see Freeview staying ahead of FTA DSat.

: Do the BBC want to make use of these existing standards-compliant STBs?

I see no reason why they should want to!

So they can break the perceived Sky monopoly on DSat, so they can
actively reach and market FTA digital TV to the 25% of homes unserved
by Freeview, so the can develop services which are not restricted by
the Freeview bandwidth limitations _without_ being guilty of the
increasingly obvious charge that they're only delivering their best
service to Sky customers.

FTA DSat isn't a threat to Freeview, it's complementary. It's about
giving people choice.

Cheers,
David.