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Timecode on programme-as-broadcast archive material



 
 
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  #11  
Old October 13th 17, 10:01 AM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
NY
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,187
Default Timecode on programme-as-broadcast archive material

"Mark Carver" wrote in message
...
On 12/10/2017 14:29, Bill Taylor wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 12:07:21 +0100, "NY" wrote:


You'll notice that there's a clock before 10:00:00:00. If you start
the programme at 00:00:00:00 the clock would run from, say
23:59:30:00, which can be a trifle disconcerting.

10:00:00:00 was the BBC convention for complete programmes, but
inserts could be run from any time code which seemed appropriate.


It's still the convention for all UK broadcasters, Ref Page 23:-

https://dpp-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/...DPPGeneric.pdf


Intersting in 1.8.3 that it seems to recommend that 4:3 archive material
should be presented in a 16:9 frame (ie reduced to 544 rather than 704
horizontal pixels) rather than using the full resolution and clearing the
widescreen flag. BBC do the former, most other broadcasters (eg ITV3, Drama,
Yesterday) do the latter when they show archive programmes.

I love the term "audio plop" in 2.8.1 :-)

  #12  
Old October 13th 17, 10:11 AM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
NY
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,187
Default Timecode on programme-as-broadcast archive material

"Roderick Stewart" wrote in message
...
The use of timecode also had to be given some thought when recording
raw material on a shoot, the two main methods being "run/record" and
"time of day", each with its pros and cons depending on what type of
shoot it was.

Time of day meant just what it says; The timecode generator would run
continuously so the timecode would be the same as the time of day.
This would be useful on a multicamera shoot where the material would
have to be synchronised later. All recorders would either be fed from
a master generator, or each would have its own built-in generator and
they'd all be set carefully at the start of the day. This inevitably
meant a more extravagant use of tape, because if partially used tapes
were used on a second day, there was a possibility of a "timewarp",
where earlier timecode values could occur at later parts of the tape,
which could confuse the editing equipment when searching for material.
Typically, time of day recording would be used with multiple
camcorders where the tapes (or cassettes) would be the smaller sizes
anyway, so there would be some waste but not so much.


I've always wondered how they manage multiple *film* camera shoots. The
other day there was a programme on BBC 2 about Alfred Hitchcock which
featured an interview with him in front of an audience. It was very
definitely shot on film - the film grain was collossal. And they seemed to
be able to cut between different film cameras and maintain sound sync. Would
they actually have had several film cameras running continuously, or did
they have a way of starting different cameras at overlapping times (to cover
reel changes) and yet keeping the film in sync with the separate sound. How
long does film and sep mag remain in sync before any drift starts to show?
If all the cameras recorded a master time of day timecode, to allow
intercutting, would a single clapperboard at the beginning allow sync across
multiple reels, providing the tape recorder ran uninterrupted to record
unbroken sound and TC?

  #13  
Old October 13th 17, 06:44 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Graham.[_12_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 404
Default Timecode on programme-as-broadcast archive material

On Fri, 13 Oct 2017 11:01:14 +0100, "NY" coalesced
the vapors of human experience into a viable and meaningful
comprehension...

"Mark Carver" wrote in message
...
On 12/10/2017 14:29, Bill Taylor wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 12:07:21 +0100, "NY" wrote:


You'll notice that there's a clock before 10:00:00:00. If you start
the programme at 00:00:00:00 the clock would run from, say
23:59:30:00, which can be a trifle disconcerting.

10:00:00:00 was the BBC convention for complete programmes, but
inserts could be run from any time code which seemed appropriate.


It's still the convention for all UK broadcasters, Ref Page 23:-

https://dpp-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/...DPPGeneric.pdf


Intersting in 1.8.3 that it seems to recommend that 4:3 archive material
should be presented in a 16:9 frame (ie reduced to 544 rather than 704
horizontal pixels) rather than using the full resolution and clearing the
widescreen flag. BBC do the former, most other broadcasters (eg ITV3, Drama,
Yesterday) do the latter when they show archive programmes.

I love the term "audio plop" in 2.8.1 :-)


The film equivalent being "pop", specifically "2-pop" or "3-pop"
depending on which film-leader standard was in use.


--

Graham.
%Profound_observation%
  #14  
Old October 13th 17, 07:04 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
NY
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,187
Default Timecode on programme-as-broadcast archive material

"Graham." wrote in message
...
On Fri, 13 Oct 2017 11:01:14 +0100, "NY" coalesced
the vapors of human experience into a viable and meaningful
comprehension...

"Mark Carver" wrote in message
...
On 12/10/2017 14:29, Bill Taylor wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 12:07:21 +0100, "NY" wrote:

You'll notice that there's a clock before 10:00:00:00. If you start
the programme at 00:00:00:00 the clock would run from, say
23:59:30:00, which can be a trifle disconcerting.

10:00:00:00 was the BBC convention for complete programmes, but
inserts could be run from any time code which seemed appropriate.

It's still the convention for all UK broadcasters, Ref Page 23:-

https://dpp-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/...DPPGeneric.pdf


Intersting in 1.8.3 that it seems to recommend that 4:3 archive material
should be presented in a 16:9 frame (ie reduced to 544 rather than 704
horizontal pixels) rather than using the full resolution and clearing the
widescreen flag. BBC do the former, most other broadcasters (eg ITV3,
Drama,
Yesterday) do the latter when they show archive programmes.

I love the term "audio plop" in 2.8.1 :-)


The film equivalent being "pop", specifically "2-pop" or "3-pop"
depending on which film-leader standard was in use.


What was the purpose of the pop/plop just before the blackout and the start
of programme? Was it so someone could check sound/vision synchronisation?
And what was the reason for having more that one of them? Presumably if they
were checking sync, they needed a light cell that could see the visual
marker, and then a storage scope to display the pulses from the visual and
audible plop and check for offset when lining up the playback device.

Audio plop does sound rather lavatorial :-) Or is that just my mucky mind?

  #15  
Old October 14th 17, 10:31 AM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Roderick Stewart[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,131
Default Timecode on programme-as-broadcast archive material

On Fri, 13 Oct 2017 11:11:51 +0100, "NY" wrote:

I've always wondered how they manage multiple *film* camera shoots. The
other day there was a programme on BBC 2 about Alfred Hitchcock which
featured an interview with him in front of an audience. It was very
definitely shot on film - the film grain was collossal. And they seemed to
be able to cut between different film cameras and maintain sound sync. Would
they actually have had several film cameras running continuously, or did
they have a way of starting different cameras at overlapping times (to cover
reel changes) and yet keeping the film in sync with the separate sound. How
long does film and sep mag remain in sync before any drift starts to show?
If all the cameras recorded a master time of day timecode, to allow
intercutting, would a single clapperboard at the beginning allow sync across
multiple reels, providing the tape recorder ran uninterrupted to record
unbroken sound and TC?


The standard method with film is to use a clapperboard to produce an
identifiable event on both picture and sound. If there are multiple
cameras, the boards are offered to each camera in turn, accompanied by
spoken idents, while everything is running before the actual take.
Cameras and tape recorders are driven by crystal oscillators that can
keep everything in sync for at least the duration of a roll of film
(about 10 minutes max I think). Once it's a finished film, it's either
on sepmag, which has sprocked holes, or a track on the film itself, so
it will easily keep sync for an entire movie.

They must waste a heck of a lot of the stuff doing all this, and it's
expensive anyway, so utter madness to use film for anything now that
we have electronics.

Rod.
  #16  
Old October 14th 17, 12:33 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
charles[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 607
Default Timecode on programme-as-broadcast archive material

In article , Roderick Stewart
wrote:
On Fri, 13 Oct 2017 11:11:51 +0100, "NY" wrote:


I've always wondered how they manage multiple *film* camera shoots. The
other day there was a programme on BBC 2 about Alfred Hitchcock which
featured an interview with him in front of an audience. It was very
definitely shot on film - the film grain was collossal. And they seemed
to be able to cut between different film cameras and maintain sound
sync. Would they actually have had several film cameras running
continuously, or did they have a way of starting different cameras at
overlapping times (to cover reel changes) and yet keeping the film in
sync with the separate sound. How long does film and sep mag remain in
sync before any drift starts to show? If all the cameras recorded a
master time of day timecode, to allow intercutting, would a single
clapperboard at the beginning allow sync across multiple reels,
providing the tape recorder ran uninterrupted to record unbroken sound
and TC?


The standard method with film is to use a clapperboard to produce an
identifiable event on both picture and sound. If there are multiple
cameras, the boards are offered to each camera in turn, accompanied by
spoken idents, while everything is running before the actual take.
Cameras and tape recorders are driven by crystal oscillators that can
keep everything in sync for at least the duration of a roll of film
(about 10 minutes max I think). Once it's a finished film, it's either on
sepmag, which has sprocked holes, or a track on the film itself, so it
will easily keep sync for an entire movie.


They must waste a heck of a lot of the stuff doing all this, and it's
expensive anyway, so utter madness to use film for anything now that we
have electronics.


I thought there wasa time when film cameras had an "add on" video camera so
that the director could see the shots. he could then tell the camera
operator to start rolling.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
  #17  
Old October 14th 17, 03:05 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
R. Mark Clayton[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 506
Default Timecode on programme-as-broadcast archive material

On Saturday, 14 October 2017 11:31:07 UTC+1, Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Fri, 13 Oct 2017 11:11:51 +0100, "NY" wrote:

I've always wondered how they manage multiple *film* camera shoots. The
other day there was a programme on BBC 2 about Alfred Hitchcock which
featured an interview with him in front of an audience. It was very
definitely shot on film - the film grain was collossal. And they seemed to
be able to cut between different film cameras and maintain sound sync. Would
they actually have had several film cameras running continuously, or did
they have a way of starting different cameras at overlapping times (to cover
reel changes) and yet keeping the film in sync with the separate sound. How
long does film and sep mag remain in sync before any drift starts to show?
If all the cameras recorded a master time of day timecode, to allow
intercutting, would a single clapperboard at the beginning allow sync across
multiple reels, providing the tape recorder ran uninterrupted to record
unbroken sound and TC?


The standard method with film is to use a clapperboard to produce an
identifiable event on both picture and sound. If there are multiple
cameras, the boards are offered to each camera in turn, accompanied by
spoken idents, while everything is running before the actual take.
Cameras and tape recorders are driven by crystal oscillators that can
keep everything in sync for at least the duration of a roll of film
(about 10 minutes max I think). Once it's a finished film, it's either
on sepmag, which has sprocked holes, or a track on the film itself, so
it will easily keep sync for an entire movie.

They must waste a heck of a lot of the stuff doing all this, and it's
expensive anyway, so utter madness to use film for anything now that
we have electronics.

Rod.


What's the resolution of 70mm film? 12 - 18k lines or so depending on ASA. OTOH very expensive to use and in serious decline.
  #18  
Old October 14th 17, 03:06 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
R. Mark Clayton[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 506
Default Timecode on programme-as-broadcast archive material

On Saturday, 14 October 2017 13:33:51 UTC+1, charles wrote:
In article , Roderick Stewart
wrote:
On Fri, 13 Oct 2017 11:11:51 +0100, "NY" wrote:


I've always wondered how they manage multiple *film* camera shoots. The
other day there was a programme on BBC 2 about Alfred Hitchcock which
featured an interview with him in front of an audience. It was very
definitely shot on film - the film grain was collossal. And they seemed
to be able to cut between different film cameras and maintain sound
sync. Would they actually have had several film cameras running
continuously, or did they have a way of starting different cameras at
overlapping times (to cover reel changes) and yet keeping the film in
sync with the separate sound. How long does film and sep mag remain in
sync before any drift starts to show? If all the cameras recorded a
master time of day timecode, to allow intercutting, would a single
clapperboard at the beginning allow sync across multiple reels,
providing the tape recorder ran uninterrupted to record unbroken sound
and TC?


The standard method with film is to use a clapperboard to produce an
identifiable event on both picture and sound. If there are multiple
cameras, the boards are offered to each camera in turn, accompanied by
spoken idents, while everything is running before the actual take.
Cameras and tape recorders are driven by crystal oscillators that can
keep everything in sync for at least the duration of a roll of film
(about 10 minutes max I think). Once it's a finished film, it's either on
sepmag, which has sprocked holes, or a track on the film itself, so it
will easily keep sync for an entire movie.


They must waste a heck of a lot of the stuff doing all this, and it's
expensive anyway, so utter madness to use film for anything now that we
have electronics.


I thought there wasa time when film cameras had an "add on" video camera so
that the director could see the shots. he could then tell the camera
operator to start rolling.


No it was so he could review the take and decide if they needed another.


--
from KT24 in Surrey, England


  #19  
Old October 14th 17, 07:22 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Roderick Stewart[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,131
Default Timecode on programme-as-broadcast archive material

On Sat, 14 Oct 2017 08:06:27 -0700 (PDT), "R. Mark Clayton"
wrote:

I thought there wasa time when film cameras had an "add on" video camera so
that the director could see the shots. he could then tell the camera
operator to start rolling.


No it was so he could review the take and decide if they needed another.


Yes, "video assist" I think it was called. It really only made sense
at a time when the attainable picture quality on film was much better
than what was possible on video, and the film was intended for the
cinema and not broadcast. But those times are long gone.

Rod.
  #20  
Old October 14th 17, 09:52 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
NY
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,187
Default Timecode on programme-as-broadcast archive material

"Roderick Stewart" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 14 Oct 2017 08:06:27 -0700 (PDT), "R. Mark Clayton"
wrote:

I thought there wasa time when film cameras had an "add on" video camera
so
that the director could see the shots. he could then tell the camera
operator to start rolling.


No it was so he could review the take and decide if they needed another.


Yes, "video assist" I think it was called. It really only made sense
at a time when the attainable picture quality on film was much better
than what was possible on video, and the film was intended for the
cinema and not broadcast. But those times are long gone.


I have seen video assist used extensively in filming of made-on-film TV
programmes such as Lewis. The director had a small screen about postcard
size which he used to view what the camera operator could see, and he and
the DoP were reviewing composition of shots ("go in slightly tighter",
"widen it to a two-shot and include the bonnet of the car as well") before
shooting. It's a damn sight easier to do it remotely rather than breathing
down the cam-op's neck and having to keep looking through his viewfinder.
I'm not sure what technology is used to send the picture from the video
camera within the film camera to the remote screen.

https://s1.postimg.org/14nmphj1f3/Pict7544.png is a picture I took during
the filming of the pilot episode of Lewis (the crew were happy to let me
mingle among them as long as I kept out of shot and out of microphone
range). The actor (just to the left of a gnarled tree) is shooting a pistol
at cans on a tree stump, and the camera is looking straight at him, as seen
on the full-size CRT monitor which the director is watching. The small
hand-held screen is on top of the monitor.

 




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