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Subtitle Disaster


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  #11  
Old April 4th 17, 06:45 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Dickie mint[_2_]
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Posts: 251
Default Subtitle Disaster

On 04/04/2017 12:15, Martin wrote:

If the average age of BBC viewers is really over 60, there must be a substantial
number relying on subtitles.


And they tell those of us who can't make out the mumbling on a lot of
dramas nowadays it's our ears or TV and to use the subtitles.......
  #12  
Old April 5th 17, 04:05 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
tim...[_2_]
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Posts: 534
Default Subtitle Disaster



"Woody" wrote in message
news

wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 4 April 2017 00:31:53 UTC+1, Davey wrote:
I know that programme subtitles are not an exact science,


If they used proper stenographers / palantypists it's pretty exact.



Most of the subtitling is done by voice recognition with a typist sitting
watching it to make any necessary corrections.


unless you can come up with a definitive reference I still remain
unconvinced that this is the case

most voice recognition "translations" are awful - an order of magnitude
worse that the mistakes currently joked about

I remember CiN in the early days of it when on the Look North opt-out
Harry Gration said 'lets go over to Tanya in Sheffield.' Tanya came up on
screen as Tiny-air.


there are quite a few such examples

but for everyone of there there are 1000 words that are correct



  #13  
Old April 5th 17, 07:03 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Alan White[_3_]
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On Tue, 4 Apr 2017 13:33:09 +0100, "Woody"
wrote:

Most of the subtitling is done by voice recognition with a typist
sitting watching it to make any necessary corrections.


When the Subtitling Unit was first set up, in Glasgow in 1983(?),
'static' subtitling was done using a tape of the programme and a script
of that programme. 'Dynamic' subtitling was introduced several years
later.

--
Alan White
Mozilla Firefox and Forte Agent.
By Loch Long, twenty-eight miles NW of Glasgow, Scotland.
Webcam and weather:- http://windycroft.co.uk/weather
  #14  
Old April 5th 17, 07:49 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Mark Carver
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Posts: 7,573
Default Subtitle Disaster

On 04/04/2017 13:33, Woody wrote:

Most of the subtitling is done by voice recognition with a typist
sitting watching it to make any necessary corrections.


Sort of, but not quite

Read on:-

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/w...les/WHP318.pdf




--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.
  #15  
Old April 6th 17, 11:34 AM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Mark Carver[_2_]
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Posts: 336
Default Subtitle Disaster

On 06/04/2017 11:05, Martin wrote:
On Wed, 5 Apr 2017 19:49:41 +0100, Mark Carver
wrote:

On 04/04/2017 13:33, Woody wrote:

Most of the subtitling is done by voice recognition with a typist
sitting watching it to make any necessary corrections.


Sort of, but not quite

Read on:-

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/w...les/WHP318.pdf


When can we expect to see the improvement?


I'll plug in my crystal ball...........


--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.
  #16  
Old April 6th 17, 03:07 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
tim...[_2_]
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Posts: 534
Default Subtitle Disaster



"Mark Carver" wrote in message
...
On 06/04/2017 11:05, Martin wrote:
On Wed, 5 Apr 2017 19:49:41 +0100, Mark Carver

wrote:

On 04/04/2017 13:33, Woody wrote:

Most of the subtitling is done by voice recognition with a typist
sitting watching it to make any necessary corrections.

Sort of, but not quite

Read on:-

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/w...les/WHP318.pdf


When can we expect to see the improvement?


I'll plug in my crystal ball...........


I don't see why they can't just delay the picture

does the (wo)man reading out the 10 o'clock news really have to start
reading it at 10 o'clock?

can't (s)he start reading it at 10 second to, with the broadcast
transmission delayed for 10 seconds whilst the subtitling is added?

tim



  #17  
Old April 6th 17, 03:25 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
NY
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Posts: 1,210
Default Subtitle Disaster

"tim..." wrote in message
news
I don't see why they can't just delay the picture

does the (wo)man reading out the 10 o'clock news really have to start
reading it at 10 o'clock?

can't (s)he start reading it at 10 second to, with the broadcast
transmission delayed for 10 seconds whilst the subtitling is added?


And why do they need someone retyping what he/she says? The words that the
newsreader says are already on the autocue, even if the newsreader may
occasionally paraphrase, so the subtitle feed could come from the autocue
feed. Reports from elsewhere will be received in advance and I'm sure there
is time *usually* for someone to listen to the report before transmission to
do a no-pressure transcript - or if the reporter has written down his script
before doing his piece to camera he can send the Word doc with the MPEG.
That still leaves truly live, unscripted chats between newsreader and
reporter at a breaking news story, but that's an exception - at least the
majority of the reports are already transcribed.


Sometimes broadcasters seem to be very backward in terms of technology. TV
programmes on iPlayer are nicely top-and-tailed and the iPlayer version is
probably prepared in advance so it can go live on the web site as soon as
the broadcast has finished. But radio programmes don't seem to use that
workflow: instead it seems that someone in Continuity has to press a button
to say "end of one iPlayer programme / start of next one" and often you get
bits of the programme before and after included, or a late-running programme
is chopped short - all looks very amateurish. Obviously live programmes have
to be done that way, but anything that's recorded will be available already
and you devise a workflow that generates two versions of the recording: a
high-quality one for broadcast and a lower-quality MP3 for iPlayer. If TV
can do that. I wonder why Radio can't?

  #18  
Old April 6th 17, 05:42 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Roderick Stewart[_3_]
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Posts: 2,147
Default Subtitle Disaster

On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 15:25:11 +0100, "NY" wrote:

I don't see why they can't just delay the picture

does the (wo)man reading out the 10 o'clock news really have to start
reading it at 10 o'clock?

can't (s)he start reading it at 10 second to, with the broadcast
transmission delayed for 10 seconds whilst the subtitling is added?


And why do they need someone retyping what he/she says? The words that the
newsreader says are already on the autocue, even if the newsreader may
occasionally paraphrase, so the subtitle feed could come from the autocue
feed.


Even scripted drama rarely follows the script exactly. Subtitles will
be made from the post-production script, and of course there wouldn't
be such a thing for a news broadcast. Then there are live reports...

I think they should investigate whatever technique Amazon is using for
their Alexa gadget, because it's very impressive. I can talk to mine
from the other side of the room, or shout down the stairwell from the
landing, and it nearly always interprets what I'm saying correctly.
Even if it doesn't know the answer to a particular query, it does
usually seem to recognise the words, as can be verified by the alexa
phone app that shows in text form what has been said to it. I'm
disappointed by the absence (so far) of any means to link it to a
wordprocessor or even a text editor, which seems to me the most
obvious use of it, and I'm sure live subtitling would be another
possibility if somebody took the trouble to work out the details.

Rod.
  #19  
Old April 6th 17, 08:50 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
NY
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Posts: 1,210
Default Subtitle Disaster

"Roderick Stewart" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 15:25:11 +0100, "NY" wrote:
I think they should investigate whatever technique Amazon is using for
their Alexa gadget, because it's very impressive. I can talk to mine
from the other side of the room, or shout down the stairwell from the
landing, and it nearly always interprets what I'm saying correctly.
Even if it doesn't know the answer to a particular query, it does
usually seem to recognise the words, as can be verified by the alexa
phone app that shows in text form what has been said to it.


Try getting Alexa to add Bovril to your shopping list - we've had "bath
oil", "bod rail" (qué) and "bare frills". I think it's because Bovril isn't
as popular (may even be unknown) in the US so she hasn't been trained to
recognise it. It's a shame there isn't a training ability in Alexa so when
she repeatedly gets things wrong you can say, not only "this is wrong", but
also "this is what I meant" so she learns. My wife and I reckon that Alexa's
word-recognition has got a bit worse in the last few weeks. That's when
standing right next to her, so room acoustics aren't too much of an issue.

The other thing that Alexa is *very* bad about (and this is not
word-recognition but understanding of the words that have been heard
correctly) is locating tracks and albums in the music app. That command
processing software needs to be improved so it preferentially uses music in
your library and so you can give a track name and not have to specify the
album (which you may not know). And so she knows more about genres of music:
like "play relaxing music" - sometimes she finds things that are anything
but relaxing.

  #20  
Old April 6th 17, 09:55 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Johnny B Good[_2_]
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Posts: 436
Default Subtitle Disaster

On Thu, 06 Apr 2017 15:25:11 +0100, NY wrote:

====snip====

Sorry, but I felt I just had to jump (hard!) in on this one...

Sometimes broadcasters seem to be very backward in terms of technology.
TV programmes on iPlayer are nicely top-and-tailed and the iPlayer
version is probably prepared in advance so it can go live on the web
site as soon as the broadcast has finished.


That's mostly true but, all too (far too) often, they just "Phone it
in", seemingly sourcing their material from the playout server streams,
"Warts and All"[1].

What's worse on these occasions, when they include gratuitous (and quite
pointless) end credit vandalism, is the oft times sloppy topping and
tailing that can include several to tens of seconds of pre and post
continuity. Not even when I first started recording Freeview broadcasts
nearly 12 years ago now did I so crudely top and tail with the rather
primitive Mpg2Cut2 editor that I then had at my disposal.

And, this isn't the worst of sins I've seen committed. On at least one
occasion during the past 6 months or so since I started gathering the
bulk of my recordings from the iPlayer servers, they've even managed to
truncate a 2 hour movie into a 65 minute or so fiasco. I think this was
corrected a day or so later.

Yet another 'Bad Habit' I've noticed in recent weeks, is that of
providing the first episode of a series in that oddball 960 by 540
resolution, providing the following episodes in "Super SD" or "Lo-
HD" (take your pick) 1280 by 720 resolution. I don't know whether this a
deliberate "Spoiler Policy" or just sheer incompetence.

More recently, they failed to make the first episode of "The Beauty of
Anatomy" entitled "Galen and Leonardo" available on iPlayer (not even for
streaming only viewing) which had been broadcast last Monday evening at
7:30pm on BBC FOUR.

Since this was a BBC commissioned programme, the omission seemed more an
error than "For the usual Contractual Suspects" disclaimer notice so
often given in these cases. Sure enough, episode two on the Tuesday
evening was available after its live broadcast but still no sign of
episode one from iPlayer. It was only after downloading episode three on
the Wednesday evening did I finally manage to download episode one,
thankfully, all three episodes being in the better 1280 by 720 "HD"
format.

I don't know what the problem was but it took them over 48 hours to
solve it or, more likely, notice their little cock up and unbork it.
iPlayer is fine most of the time but it does seem to suffer more than its
fair share of spoilage suggestive of high levels of incompetence amongst
those who are ru(i)ning the operation.

It's almost as if the bulk of the staff are on "Zero Hours Contract"s by
the numerous cockups that only a total lack of pride (or indeed, any
interest) would allow to slip by on so regular a basis. The BBC's iPlayer
operations could do with a lot more polish to bring it up to a standard
more on a par with their OtA broadcasting operations (which these days is
no longer the 'Big Ask' it once was).

[1] The phrase, "Warts and All" is attributed to Oliver Cromwell. Funnily
enough, a bit of English history revealed in an episode from the very
informative "Horrible History" series currently being aired on CBBC. This
is a prime example of the BBC's mandate to "Inform, educate and
entertain.", ticking, as it does, all three boxes.

Who is it, I wonder, that has the temerity to say that the Beeb no
longer follow this mandate whilst such programmes are still being
commissioned? :-)

--
Johnny B Good
 




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