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Advice on mast and bracket please



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 8th 17, 02:41 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Jim
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 41
Default Advice on mast and bracket please

Hi everyone, I'm about to mount an small (10" x 10", less then 1KG) 4G
external antenna (bands 42/43 which is supposed to be 3.5Ghz to 3.8Ghz)
to an old Sky TV bracket and mast but Id like your input before i buy
anything.

The link below will show you the old (at least 20 years, but feels very
solid) Sky TV bracket and bent mast
https://s26.postimg.org/5evbydgu1/20170105_160152.jpg

Also the link below will show you that i have a small overhang for the
tiles, so i will not be able to remove the old sky pole and put a new
one in unless i use the dogleg type
https://s26.postimg.org/fq7or18jd/20170105_160235.jpg

Both the bracket and pole seem very secure so i have no worries using
them again, however i am worried about the durability of clamping one
pole to another.

Also this image below gives you an idea of the general mounting location
https://s26.postimg.org/k3689gha1/Sky_Bracket.jpg
as you can see on the left there is a T&K bracket for the TV antenna,
but i cannot touch that as it's a communal tv system, also on the far
right there is another T&K bracket but to be honest Id rather not use
that as it will mean getting someone in every time as i can't access it
myself due to illness but the Sky bracket i can work on with no issues.

I reckon the pole will need to be about 10 feet to clear the roof tiles
but i do have a small issue with the tree outside but i reckon i can get
round that by just trimming it now and then, below are a few more images
for you to look at, i hope they help.

https://s26.postimg.org/5evbydgu1/20170105_160152.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/fq7or18jd/20170105_160235.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/ckn30tpx5/20170105_160433.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/qscrph2m1/20170105_160617.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/k3689gha1/Sky_Bracket.jpg

So should i use another pole and clamp the poles together, remove the
sky pole and use a dogleg pole to clear the roof or something else, also
any suggestions for the pole itself (thickness etc) and any other advice
that you think i should know this is nothing to do with tv but thought
you guys might help.

oh yea plus i posted elsewhere and got no reply ;-)

TIA

Jim
  #2  
Old January 8th 17, 03:43 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Bill Wright[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,917
Default Advice on mast and bracket please

On 08/01/2017 15:41, Jim wrote:
On 08/01/2017 15:41, Jim wrote:

I reckon the pole will need to be about 10 feet to clear the roof tiles


Not wise to mount a ten foot mast on that bracket. The wind pressure on
the antenna would be multiplied 20-fold by leverage. Although the
bracket is properly fixed and is a strong one, it wouldn't be long
before the wall bolts would pull slightly. Then there would be a tapping
noise going right through the building whenever there was a slight wind.

It sounds as if you plan to get the antenna above the roof level. You'd
be amazed at the force of the wind at the edge of a pitched roof. When
the wind is hitting the roof at an angle it spills off the edges and
will easily lift a man off his roof ladder.

Any attempt to fix a mast to the horizontal section of the existing sky
masting will fail. The rotational force around the horizontal mast at
the clamping point will be enormous.

I suggest you do the following:
Buy a 12mm socket and a ratchet socket wrench.
Remove the Sky bracket.
Buy two of item WB23 (12 x12 inch Welded Wall Bracket) from Blakes of
Sheffield (see website) also eight wallbolts and a ten foot by 1.5" mast.
Hire or borrow a percussion drill (15 a day from a tool hire place).
Your bricks are quite hard but an SDS drill will cope easily.
Buy/borrow an SDS masonry drill bit sized for the wall bolts (150mm x
10mm usually) and a 400mm x 8mm SDS drill bit, both from the tool hire
shop. The long drill is to drill though the mortar joint for the feeder
cable.
Fix the two brackets. Top bracket to be as high up as you can reach.
Bottom bracket to be a low as it can be consistent with desired antenna
height. Brackets must be at least two feet apart. Four is better.
Tip: Fix the top bracket with one fixing only, fairly tight so it can
swivel. Attach the top of the mast to this bracket so the mast hangs
down. Get the mast vertical using a spirit level. Fix the lower bracket
to the mast without disturbing verticality and then fix the bracket to
the wall. Attach the antenna. Push the mast up to the final position.
Check all four U bolts and all 8 wall bolts.

Hope this helps.

Bill
  #3  
Old January 8th 17, 05:33 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Jim
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 41
Default Advice on mast and bracket please

On 08/01/2017 16:43, Bill Wright wrote:
On 08/01/2017 15:41, Jim wrote:
On 08/01/2017 15:41, Jim wrote:

I reckon the pole will need to be about 10 feet to clear the roof tiles


Not wise to mount a ten foot mast on that bracket. The wind pressure on
the antenna would be multiplied 20-fold by leverage. Although the
bracket is properly fixed and is a strong one, it wouldn't be long
before the wall bolts would pull slightly. Then there would be a tapping
noise going right through the building whenever there was a slight wind.

It sounds as if you plan to get the antenna above the roof level. You'd
be amazed at the force of the wind at the edge of a pitched roof. When
the wind is hitting the roof at an angle it spills off the edges and
will easily lift a man off his roof ladder.

Any attempt to fix a mast to the horizontal section of the existing sky
masting will fail. The rotational force around the horizontal mast at
the clamping point will be enormous.

I suggest you do the following:
Buy a 12mm socket and a ratchet socket wrench.
Remove the Sky bracket.
Buy two of item WB23 (12 x12 inch Welded Wall Bracket) from Blakes of
Sheffield (see website) also eight wallbolts and a ten foot by 1.5" mast.
Hire or borrow a percussion drill (15 a day from a tool hire place).
Your bricks are quite hard but an SDS drill will cope easily.
Buy/borrow an SDS masonry drill bit sized for the wall bolts (150mm x
10mm usually) and a 400mm x 8mm SDS drill bit, both from the tool hire
shop. The long drill is to drill though the mortar joint for the feeder
cable.
Fix the two brackets. Top bracket to be as high up as you can reach.
Bottom bracket to be a low as it can be consistent with desired antenna
height. Brackets must be at least two feet apart. Four is better.
Tip: Fix the top bracket with one fixing only, fairly tight so it can
swivel. Attach the top of the mast to this bracket so the mast hangs
down. Get the mast vertical using a spirit level. Fix the lower bracket
to the mast without disturbing verticality and then fix the bracket to
the wall. Attach the antenna. Push the mast up to the final position.
Check all four U bolts and all 8 wall bolts.

Hope this helps.

Bill

Thanks Bill for the great detailed reply I have 2 points to raise
firstly the fixing "screws" the brackets refer to item "BLAFIX10" which
is just a screw and raw plug on steroids by the look of it, when i used
to install CB radio antennas (from silver rods up to Sigma IV, 18-30
feet i think) in the 80's we used to use rawlbolts
http://www.screwfix.com/p/rawlplug-r...m-5-pack/46792
would these not be better ot is that over kill?
Also I was planning on moving the mast up and down to some degree
depending on the wind, and for maintenance, I live just off the River
Thames and sometimes it blows like mad round here, also Im not disabled
but movement is not what is used to be plus i presume i'll have to hire
a ladder as well, and Im not great up getting up them nowadays I doubt
all this work could be done from my windows so hiring a ladder and a
body would be needed, any suggestions on getting this done on the cheap?

Jim
  #4  
Old January 8th 17, 05:38 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Woody[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,765
Default Advice on mast and bracket please


"Jim" wrote in message
...
Hi everyone, I'm about to mount an small (10" x 10", less then 1KG)
4G external antenna (bands 42/43 which is supposed to be 3.5Ghz to
3.8Ghz) to an old Sky TV bracket and mast but Id like your input
before i buy anything.

The link below will show you the old (at least 20 years, but feels
very solid) Sky TV bracket and bent mast
https://s26.postimg.org/5evbydgu1/20170105_160152.jpg

Also the link below will show you that i have a small overhang for
the tiles, so i will not be able to remove the old sky pole and put
a new one in unless i use the dogleg type
https://s26.postimg.org/fq7or18jd/20170105_160235.jpg

Both the bracket and pole seem very secure so i have no worries
using them again, however i am worried about the durability of
clamping one pole to another.

Also this image below gives you an idea of the general mounting
location
https://s26.postimg.org/k3689gha1/Sky_Bracket.jpg
as you can see on the left there is a T&K bracket for the TV
antenna, but i cannot touch that as it's a communal tv system, also
on the far right there is another T&K bracket but to be honest Id
rather not use that as it will mean getting someone in every time as
i can't access it myself due to illness but the Sky bracket i can
work on with no issues.

I reckon the pole will need to be about 10 feet to clear the roof
tiles but i do have a small issue with the tree outside but i reckon
i can get round that by just trimming it now and then, below are a
few more images for you to look at, i hope they help.

https://s26.postimg.org/5evbydgu1/20170105_160152.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/fq7or18jd/20170105_160235.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/ckn30tpx5/20170105_160433.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/qscrph2m1/20170105_160617.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/k3689gha1/Sky_Bracket.jpg

So should i use another pole and clamp the poles together, remove
the sky pole and use a dogleg pole to clear the roof or something
else, also any suggestions for the pole itself (thickness etc) and
any other advice that you think i should know this is nothing to do
with tv but thought you guys might help.

oh yea plus i posted elsewhere and got no reply ;-)


I'm a little puzzled.

If you are erecting a panel antenna (such as by Solwise) it will be
directional. Do you know/how can you be sure which base station site
you are using? Indeed even if you know the site how can you be sure
that is the one on which you phone or whatever is registered? Is the
site that you want to use 'round the corner' of the building such that
you only need to put the panel just above the slope of the roof? If it
is over the ridge then you will need a tall and substantial pole to
ensure that the wind does not bend it. As Bill says the wind sheer at
the edge or on the ridge of a roof can be frighteningly large.

Personally I would have thought you would be better off putting a gain
omni aerial on top of the pole and - I supose - hope for the best.

Have you actually downloaded one of the signal monitoring apps for
your device and then opened your Juliet window and had a look at the
signal available? Then have you gone outside around the building to
see if the 4G signal is any better in another direction? Bear in mind
that you phone will probably revert to 3G or 2G for speech and the
preferred base station for that may not be on the same site as 4G?

I would suggest further investigation before starting to erect
aerials.


--
Woody

harrogate3 at ntlworld dot com


  #5  
Old January 8th 17, 08:11 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Jim
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 41
Default Advice on mast and bracket please

On 08/01/2017 18:38, Woody wrote:

I'm a little puzzled.

If you are erecting a panel antenna (such as by Solwise) it will be
directional. Do you know/how can you be sure which base station site
you are using? Indeed even if you know the site how can you be sure
that is the one on which you phone or whatever is registered? Is the
site that you want to use 'round the corner' of the building such that
you only need to put the panel just above the slope of the roof? If it
is over the ridge then you will need a tall and substantial pole to
ensure that the wind does not bend it. As Bill says the wind sheer at
the edge or on the ridge of a roof can be frighteningly large.

Personally I would have thought you would be better off putting a gain
omni aerial on top of the pole and - I supose - hope for the best.

Have you actually downloaded one of the signal monitoring apps for
your device and then opened your Juliet window and had a look at the
signal available? Then have you gone outside around the building to
see if the 4G signal is any better in another direction? Bear in mind
that you phone will probably revert to 3G or 2G for speech and the
preferred base station for that may not be on the same site as 4G?

I would suggest further investigation before starting to erect
aerials.



Hi Woody, thanks for the reply if you take a look at these 2 link it
will show you the antenna in question.
The 4g system i'm system is differnt to your normal mobile 4G networks
this works higher up the band at 3.5/3.8Ghz and the ISP is called
Relish.net, the mast in question is based in Tiller Street, London E14,
i have used there own router before and just about got a signal but that
just has a inbuilt antenna, I can hack it and wire up an ext antenna but
went down this route.

https://s26.postimg.org/3mz5bumwp/20170108_190732_1.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/h561o4z21/20170108_190758_1.jpg

I am below River Thames waterline in my first floor flat so worked on
the basis of getting antenna higher can do no harm, right now i "think"
i have a fairly decent line of sight using maps and crow flies, there is
one or two blocks in the way, but given i got a weak signal on internal
router/antenna i can't see me making it any worse.

Sorry i have no idea what a "gain omni aerial" is.

Jim
  #6  
Old January 8th 17, 09:39 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Bill Wright[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,917
Default Advice on mast and bracket please

On 08/01/2017 18:33, Jim wrote:

Thanks Bill for the great detailed reply I have 2 points to raise
firstly the fixing "screws" the brackets refer to item "BLAFIX10" which
is just a screw and raw plug on steroids by the look of it, when i used
to install CB radio antennas (from silver rods up to Sigma IV, 18-30
feet i think) in the 80's we used to use rawlbolts
http://www.screwfix.com/p/rawlplug-r...m-5-pack/46792
would these not be better ot is that over kill?


I always avoided the 'screw and raw plug on steroids' as you amusingly
put it. However on your type of brick they might be OK. Personally
though I would use 10mm x 75mm sleeve anchors.

Google sleeve anchors. The ones with a nut rather than a bolt head are best.


Also I was planning on moving the mast up and down to some degree
depending on the wind, and for maintenance, I live just off the River
Thames and sometimes it blows like mad round here, also Im not disabled
but movement is not what is used to be plus i presume i'll have to hire
a ladder as well, and Im not great up getting up them nowadays I doubt
all this work could be done from my windows so hiring a ladder and a
body would be needed, any suggestions on getting this done on the cheap?


You won't need to lower it when it's windy if you do it like I telled yer.

But if you do, fit anti-slip washers then grease the nuts and threads on
the U bolts to protect from rust. Then you'll be able to lower the mast,
as long as the fixing bracket on the antenna doesn't foul the tile edge
when you lower the mast.

I would have hoped you could do this from the window. Not easy but
do-able with care. If not, you could use the local handyman. Cheaper
than aerial installers and less cocky. But put the brackets where you
can reach them from the window.

I suppose you could buy a ladder if you have somewhere to keep it. Or
hire one. It isn't fun using a big drill up a ladder though, if you
aren't used to it. Do you live near that hospital where they film '24
Hours in A & E'? If so I'll look out for you...

Seriously, don't take risks.

Bill

  #7  
Old January 8th 17, 11:33 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Graham.[_12_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 404
Default Advice on mast and bracket please

On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 18:38:10 -0000, "Woody"
wrote:


"Jim" wrote in message
...
Hi everyone, I'm about to mount an small (10" x 10", less then 1KG)
4G external antenna (bands 42/43 which is supposed to be 3.5Ghz to
3.8Ghz) to an old Sky TV bracket and mast but Id like your input
before i buy anything.

The link below will show you the old (at least 20 years, but feels
very solid) Sky TV bracket and bent mast
https://s26.postimg.org/5evbydgu1/20170105_160152.jpg

Also the link below will show you that i have a small overhang for
the tiles, so i will not be able to remove the old sky pole and put
a new one in unless i use the dogleg type
https://s26.postimg.org/fq7or18jd/20170105_160235.jpg

Both the bracket and pole seem very secure so i have no worries
using them again, however i am worried about the durability of
clamping one pole to another.

Also this image below gives you an idea of the general mounting
location
https://s26.postimg.org/k3689gha1/Sky_Bracket.jpg
as you can see on the left there is a T&K bracket for the TV
antenna, but i cannot touch that as it's a communal tv system, also
on the far right there is another T&K bracket but to be honest Id
rather not use that as it will mean getting someone in every time as
i can't access it myself due to illness but the Sky bracket i can
work on with no issues.

I reckon the pole will need to be about 10 feet to clear the roof
tiles but i do have a small issue with the tree outside but i reckon
i can get round that by just trimming it now and then, below are a
few more images for you to look at, i hope they help.

https://s26.postimg.org/5evbydgu1/20170105_160152.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/fq7or18jd/20170105_160235.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/ckn30tpx5/20170105_160433.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/qscrph2m1/20170105_160617.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/k3689gha1/Sky_Bracket.jpg

So should i use another pole and clamp the poles together, remove
the sky pole and use a dogleg pole to clear the roof or something
else, also any suggestions for the pole itself (thickness etc) and
any other advice that you think i should know this is nothing to do
with tv but thought you guys might help.

oh yea plus i posted elsewhere and got no reply ;-)


I'm a little puzzled.

If you are erecting a panel antenna (such as by Solwise) it will be
directional. Do you know/how can you be sure which base station site
you are using? Indeed even if you know the site how can you be sure
that is the one on which you phone or whatever is registered? Is the
site that you want to use 'round the corner' of the building such that
you only need to put the panel just above the slope of the roof? If it
is over the ridge then you will need a tall and substantial pole to
ensure that the wind does not bend it. As Bill says the wind sheer at
the edge or on the ridge of a roof can be frighteningly large.

Personally I would have thought you would be better off putting a gain
omni aerial on top of the pole and - I supose - hope for the best.

Have you actually downloaded one of the signal monitoring apps for
your device and then opened your Juliet window and had a look at the
signal available? Then have you gone outside around the building to
see if the 4G signal is any better in another direction? Bear in mind
that you phone will probably revert to 3G or 2G for speech and the
preferred base station for that may not be on the same site as 4G?

I would suggest further investigation before starting to erect
aerials.


Going by the bands, this appears to be Relish Broadband in London. I
can't find a list of BTS location, I wonder if the OP has that
information, or perhaps he intends to use the "Armstrong Method" to
get the bearing ;-)



--

Graham.

%Profound_observation%
  #8  
Old January 9th 17, 07:48 AM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Robin[_8_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 445
Default Advice on mast and bracket please

On 08/01/2017 22:39, Bill Wright wrote:

I always avoided the 'screw and raw plug on steroids' as you amusingly
put it. However on your type of brick they might be OK. Personally
though I would use 10mm x 75mm sleeve anchors.

Do you have a view on masonry screws (eg Multi Monti or De Walt
Blue-tip) for fixing brackets please? I ask as they avoid the risk of
the expansion splitting the bricks.


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
  #9  
Old January 9th 17, 07:54 AM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Brian Gaff
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,815
Default Advice on mast and bracket please

I can tell you I had this exact issue with brackets too close to gether for
a pole extended with another pole using a sleeeve clamp. Two years down the
tapping started, then a few months later everything was on the **** as one
bolt came out of the wall bringing half a ton of render and a bit of brick.
the repair to the wall cost me a lot of money.
I'd say bite the bullet, try to get a new more substantial double bracket
system fitted in the spot you want it.

I obvbviously cannot see your pictures but from the description the
mounting is not up to the job with such leverage over time and even if the
bolts hold poles bend.
Quite what the aerial is you want to mount I'm not sure.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Bill Wright" wrote in message
news
On 08/01/2017 15:41, Jim wrote:
On 08/01/2017 15:41, Jim wrote:

I reckon the pole will need to be about 10 feet to clear the roof tiles


Not wise to mount a ten foot mast on that bracket. The wind pressure on
the antenna would be multiplied 20-fold by leverage. Although the bracket
is properly fixed and is a strong one, it wouldn't be long before the wall
bolts would pull slightly. Then there would be a tapping noise going right
through the building whenever there was a slight wind.

It sounds as if you plan to get the antenna above the roof level. You'd be
amazed at the force of the wind at the edge of a pitched roof. When the
wind is hitting the roof at an angle it spills off the edges and will
easily lift a man off his roof ladder.

Any attempt to fix a mast to the horizontal section of the existing sky
masting will fail. The rotational force around the horizontal mast at the
clamping point will be enormous.

I suggest you do the following:
Buy a 12mm socket and a ratchet socket wrench.
Remove the Sky bracket.
Buy two of item WB23 (12 x12 inch Welded Wall Bracket) from Blakes of
Sheffield (see website) also eight wallbolts and a ten foot by 1.5" mast.
Hire or borrow a percussion drill (15 a day from a tool hire place). Your
bricks are quite hard but an SDS drill will cope easily.
Buy/borrow an SDS masonry drill bit sized for the wall bolts (150mm x 10mm
usually) and a 400mm x 8mm SDS drill bit, both from the tool hire shop.
The long drill is to drill though the mortar joint for the feeder cable.
Fix the two brackets. Top bracket to be as high up as you can reach.
Bottom bracket to be a low as it can be consistent with desired antenna
height. Brackets must be at least two feet apart. Four is better.
Tip: Fix the top bracket with one fixing only, fairly tight so it can
swivel. Attach the top of the mast to this bracket so the mast hangs down.
Get the mast vertical using a spirit level. Fix the lower bracket to the
mast without disturbing verticality and then fix the bracket to the wall.
Attach the antenna. Push the mast up to the final position. Check all four
U bolts and all 8 wall bolts.

Hope this helps.

Bill



  #10  
Old January 9th 17, 08:42 AM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Bill Wright[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,917
Default Advice on mast and bracket please

On 09/01/2017 08:48, Robin wrote:
On 08/01/2017 22:39, Bill Wright wrote:

I always avoided the 'screw and raw plug on steroids' as you amusingly
put it. However on your type of brick they might be OK. Personally
though I would use 10mm x 75mm sleeve anchors.

Do you have a view on masonry screws (eg Multi Monti or De Walt
Blue-tip) for fixing brackets please? I ask as they avoid the risk of
the expansion splitting the bricks.


I can't help you with masonry screws as they seem to have passed me by.
However, sleeve anchors do not apply much expansion force to the brick.
If you drill right through the brick and use the correct length bolt
they don't apply any. They aren't like the old rawlbolts for instance.

I've used thousands sleeve anchors and I saw very few split bricks. Of
course very soft bricks are going to split whatever you use.

Bill
 




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