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uk.tech.digital-tv (Digital TV - General) (uk.tech.digital-tv) Discussion of all matters technical in origin related to the reception of digital television transmissions, be they via satellite, terrestrial or cable. Advertising is forbidden, with no exceptions.

Is access to all frequencies for listening a human right?



 
 
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  #21  
Old November 8th 16, 12:00 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Roderick Stewart[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,966
Default Is access to all frequencies for listening a human right?

On Tue, 8 Nov 2016 10:34:56 +0000, Ian Jackson
wrote:

the Radio Society of Great Britain has been campaigning
about these for many years.

The stable door is swinging in the breeze and the horse is no longer in
sight ...


And, with no disrespect intended to the RSGB, if radio hams are the
only people affected, it's extremely unlikely anyone will even bother
to send out a search party for that horse.

My own cursory experiments would seem to suggest that this is the
case, as a portable shortwave radio inside my house, i.e. right in the
middle of a mains wiring system presumably throbbing with unwanted RF
is unable to pick up anything untoward unless I hold it within about a
foot of one of the homeplug devices. It picks up more rubbish from my
TV and from further away, and I haven't heard of any campaigns to ban
TVs because they interfere with the rights of radio hams...

You are overlooking that the fact that interference from TV sets (and
all sorts of things) CAN (technically) be fixed at source. Interference
from signals transmitted over the mains wiring simply CAN'T.


I'm not overlooking the fact that wherever these interfering signals
are supposed to be coming from, in my house they CAN'T be received.
Presumably if they're in all the mains wiring I must be surrounded by
interference, and yet a shortwave radio that clearly works because it
can pick up signals from remote transmitters, picks up nothing at all
from any of my wiring unless I hold it really close.

Rod.
  #22  
Old November 8th 16, 12:06 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Roderick Stewart[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,966
Default Is access to all frequencies for listening a human right?

On Tue, 8 Nov 2016 11:53:14 -0000, "Woody"
wrote:

Actually it is an offence to listen to any station not intended for
'public information, education, or entertainment' irrespective of
source without the permission of the licence holder or of the
Secretary of State.

But how can it be policed?


Not very easily with the present level of legally sanctioned
government snoopage, but who knows what extra rights the buggers could
claim if somebody doesn't stop them?

First they came for our passwords...

Rod.
  #23  
Old November 8th 16, 12:13 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
James Stewart
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4
Default Is access to all frequencies for listening a human right?


"Ian Jackson" wrote in message
...
In message , R.
Mark Clayton writes
On Monday, 7 November 2016 08:21:02 UTC, Brian Gaff wrote:
I think it should be. At the moment there are so many devices that
either
due to poor design or the way they operate, which pollute the airwaves
that
its a scandal
Brian




Joe public can only transmit on some very limited frequencies - citizen's
band, certified transmitters in GSM, wi-fi etc. Other bands only with a
license.

One can receive a lot more, but in theory listening in to the police and
military is an offence.


Actually, deliberately receiving ANYTHING you're not licensed for (or
which is not licence-free) is an offence. Anything you accidentally
receive must not be divulged to anyone other than appropriately authorised
persons.

Isn't life boring!


not for most people as they don't stick to the rules ......


  #24  
Old November 8th 16, 01:30 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Ian Jackson[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 42
Default Is access to all frequencies for listening a human right?

In message , Roderick
Stewart writes
On Tue, 8 Nov 2016 10:34:56 +0000, Ian Jackson
wrote:

the Radio Society of Great Britain has been campaigning
about these for many years.

The stable door is swinging in the breeze and the horse is no longer in
sight ...

And, with no disrespect intended to the RSGB, if radio hams are the
only people affected, it's extremely unlikely anyone will even bother
to send out a search party for that horse.

My own cursory experiments would seem to suggest that this is the
case, as a portable shortwave radio inside my house, i.e. right in the
middle of a mains wiring system presumably throbbing with unwanted RF
is unable to pick up anything untoward unless I hold it within about a
foot of one of the homeplug devices. It picks up more rubbish from my
TV and from further away, and I haven't heard of any campaigns to ban
TVs because they interfere with the rights of radio hams...

You are overlooking that the fact that interference from TV sets (and
all sorts of things) CAN (technically) be fixed at source. Interference
from signals transmitted over the mains wiring simply CAN'T.


I'm not overlooking the fact that wherever these interfering signals
are supposed to be coming from, in my house they CAN'T be received.
Presumably if they're in all the mains wiring I must be surrounded by
interference, and yet a shortwave radio that clearly works because it
can pick up signals from remote transmitters, picks up nothing at all
from any of my wiring unless I hold it really close.

Are you - or is anyone in your vicinity - using broadband-over-mains? If
so, I'm surprised that you can't detect any signals coming from these
sources.

But, of course, it all depends what SW signals you're listening to.
Strong broadcast stations will be less-affected than often very weak
amateur signals - which is why the manufacturers of this equipment,
after having their arms twisted, eventually agreed to digitally notch
out the transmission of data in most of the amateur bands. In most
cases, this seems to provide an adequate solution - but the penalty is
that there is (obviously) less RF bandwidth available to transmit the
data - and this (of course) results in a slower data speed than could be
obtained if there were no notches.


--
Ian
  #25  
Old November 8th 16, 01:40 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Ian Jackson[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 42
Default Is access to all frequencies for listening a human right?

In message , James Stewart
writes

"Ian Jackson" wrote in message
...
In message , R.
Mark Clayton writes
On Monday, 7 November 2016 08:21:02 UTC, Brian Gaff wrote:
I think it should be. At the moment there are so many devices that
either
due to poor design or the way they operate, which pollute the airwaves
that
its a scandal
Brian




Joe public can only transmit on some very limited frequencies - citizen's
band, certified transmitters in GSM, wi-fi etc. Other bands only with a
license.

One can receive a lot more, but in theory listening in to the police and
military is an offence.


Actually, deliberately receiving ANYTHING you're not licensed for (or
which is not licence-free) is an offence. Anything you accidentally
receive must not be divulged to anyone other than appropriately authorised
persons.

Isn't life boring!


not for most people as they don't stick to the rules ......

Get back in your box, Jim.


--
Ian
  #26  
Old November 8th 16, 01:44 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
James Stewart
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4
Default Is access to all frequencies for listening a human right?


"Ian Jackson" wrote in message
...
In message , James Stewart
writes

"Ian Jackson" wrote in
message
...
In message , R.
Mark Clayton writes
On Monday, 7 November 2016 08:21:02 UTC, Brian Gaff wrote:
I think it should be. At the moment there are so many devices that
either
due to poor design or the way they operate, which pollute the airwaves
that
its a scandal
Brian




Joe public can only transmit on some very limited frequencies -
citizen's
band, certified transmitters in GSM, wi-fi etc. Other bands only with a
license.

One can receive a lot more, but in theory listening in to the police and
military is an offence.

Actually, deliberately receiving ANYTHING you're not licensed for (or
which is not licence-free) is an offence. Anything you accidentally
receive must not be divulged to anyone other than appropriately
authorised
persons.

Isn't life boring!


not for most people as they don't stick to the rules ......

Get back in your box, Jim.


I will not .....


  #27  
Old November 8th 16, 06:09 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Roderick Stewart[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,966
Default Is access to all frequencies for listening a human right?

On Tue, 8 Nov 2016 14:30:22 +0000, Ian Jackson
wrote:

I'm not overlooking the fact that wherever these interfering signals
are supposed to be coming from, in my house they CAN'T be received.
Presumably if they're in all the mains wiring I must be surrounded by
interference, and yet a shortwave radio that clearly works because it
can pick up signals from remote transmitters, picks up nothing at all
from any of my wiring unless I hold it really close.

Are you - or is anyone in your vicinity - using broadband-over-mains? If
so, I'm surprised that you can't detect any signals coming from these
sources.


Yes, I have currently three homeplug devices, so whatever they pump
out I'd expect to be surrounded with it, and yet I can hear nothing,
even between stations, on a portable radio more than a couple of feet
from one of the devices. Elsewhere, AM reception on all wavebands is
fine. I know that some people say these things cause problems, but my
own tests have failed to reveal any evidence of it.

Rod.
  #28  
Old November 8th 16, 06:47 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Bill Wright[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,622
Default Is access to all frequencies for listening a human right?

On 08/11/2016 19:09, Roderick Stewart wrote:

Yes, I have currently three homeplug devices, so whatever they pump
out I'd expect to be surrounded with it, and yet I can hear nothing,
even between stations, on a portable radio more than a couple of feet
from one of the devices. Elsewhere, AM reception on all wavebands is
fine. I know that some people say these things cause problems, but my
own tests have failed to reveal any evidence of it.

Rod.


If these devices work in 'normal mode' I suppose a good test would be to
separate the line and neutral conductors somewhere between the homeplug
'master' and 'slave' and see how much each of them radiates. But maybe
they work in common mode?

Bill
  #29  
Old November 8th 16, 06:59 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Ian Jackson[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 42
Default Is access to all frequencies for listening a human right?

In message , Roderick
Stewart writes
On Tue, 8 Nov 2016 14:30:22 +0000, Ian Jackson
wrote:

I'm not overlooking the fact that wherever these interfering signals
are supposed to be coming from, in my house they CAN'T be received.
Presumably if they're in all the mains wiring I must be surrounded by
interference, and yet a shortwave radio that clearly works because it
can pick up signals from remote transmitters, picks up nothing at all
from any of my wiring unless I hold it really close.

Are you - or is anyone in your vicinity - using broadband-over-mains? If
so, I'm surprised that you can't detect any signals coming from these
sources.


Yes, I have currently three homeplug devices, so whatever they pump
out I'd expect to be surrounded with it, and yet I can hear nothing,
even between stations, on a portable radio more than a couple of feet
from one of the devices. Elsewhere, AM reception on all wavebands is
fine. I know that some people say these things cause problems, but my
own tests have failed to reveal any evidence of it.

It's the mains wiring that does the radiating, rather than the devices
attached to it - although I don't expect the radiation will suddenly
disappear at the ends. I'm surprised that you don't hear at least some
significant close-to interference - even though it might be of a level
which, realistically, probably wouldn't cause any problems further
afield.
[Note that I speak from a position of complete personal inexperience. I
only have few immediate neighbours, and I doubt if any of them use these
devices. I do get a fair amount of electrical snap, crackle and pop from
the usual culprits, but I can't say I've identified any as being from
PLT stuff.]
--
Ian
  #30  
Old November 8th 16, 08:13 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
David Woolley[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 514
Default Is access to all frequencies for listening a human right?

On 08/11/16 19:47, Bill Wright wrote:



If these devices work in 'normal mode' I suppose a good test would be to
separate the line and neutral conductors somewhere between the homeplug
'master' and 'slave' and see how much each of them radiates. But maybe
they work in common mode?


They work in differential mode (your normal mode, I guess), which is why
they can produce negligible radiation in the ideal environment of the
compliance test rig.

 




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