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Is access to all frequencies for listening a human right?



 
 
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  #11  
Old November 7th 16, 03:06 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Brian Gaff
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Posts: 6,815
Default Is access to all frequencies for listening a human right?

As I say, it affects broadcast bands and time signals standard frequency
stations and even legitimate emergency frequencies as well. As I say, I'm
not asking for the right to snoop on all things, merely the right to at
least a reasonably quite environment. I think and believe that the plug in
powerline internet devices are inherently illegal, due to the way they
operate.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"David Woolley" wrote in message
...
On 07/11/16 08:21, Brian Gaff wrote:
I think it should be. At the moment there are so many devices that either
due to poor design or the way they operate, which pollute the airwaves
that
its a scandal


It is not a legal right. In the UK you can only listen to official
broadcast stations, time and frequency standards, and properly licensed
radio amateurs, unless there is a licence in effect.

The US is a bit more liberal, but they have explicit laws against
listening on cellular frequencies without using an unmodified cell phone.

Controls on unintentional radiation are a compromise between the ideal and
what manufacturers can afford to produce. They set limits well above the
natural background levels.

Enforcement of those controls is weak, largely relying on self
certification. Often components included during certification are removed
in production. That's illegal, but there are no resources to enforce it.

Controls on radiation from power lines make idealistic assumptions about
the degree of balance in the system.



  #12  
Old November 7th 16, 06:05 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Max Demian
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Posts: 3,805
Default Is access to all frequencies for listening a human right?

On Mon, 7 Nov 2016 15:52:30 -0000, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

Funnily enough I did wonder what would happen if somebody put huge
capacitors across the mains in several houses on different phases

up a
street?


Cheap heating by interfering with the power factor.

--
Max Demian
  #13  
Old November 7th 16, 07:26 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
David Woolley[_2_]
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Posts: 526
Default Is access to all frequencies for listening a human right?

On 07/11/16 16:06, Brian Gaff wrote:
As I say, it affects broadcast bands and time signals standard frequency
stations and even legitimate emergency frequencies as well. As I say, I'm
not asking for the right to snoop on all things, merely the right to at
least a reasonably quite environment. I think and believe that the plug in
powerline internet devices are inherently illegal, due to the way they
operate.


They are not inherently illegal. They meet the conducted and radiated
emission standards when tested by the developers. The problems are,
those standards are set for people listening to mainstream broadcasters
in primary service areas, not for someone trying to work near the
physical limits, and real world household wiring does not have the ideal
balance of that in the test rigs.

Incidentally, the Radio Society of Great Britain has been campaigning
about these for many years. There are some concessions, such as not
using sub-carriers in the amateur bands.

  #14  
Old November 7th 16, 07:30 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Andy Burns[_12_]
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Posts: 380
Default Is access to all frequencies for listening a human right?

David Woolley wrote:

the Radio Society of Great Britain has been campaigning
about these for many years.


The stable door is swinging in the breeze and the horse is no longer in
sight ...


  #15  
Old November 8th 16, 08:29 AM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Roderick Stewart[_3_]
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Posts: 2,136
Default Is access to all frequencies for listening a human right?

On Mon, 7 Nov 2016 20:30:37 +0000, Andy Burns
wrote:

the Radio Society of Great Britain has been campaigning
about these for many years.


The stable door is swinging in the breeze and the horse is no longer in
sight ...


And, with no disrespect intended to the RSGB, if radio hams are the
only people affected, it's extremely unlikely anyone will even bother
to send out a search party for that horse.

My own cursory experiments would seem to suggest that this is the
case, as a portable shortwave radio inside my house, i.e. right in the
middle of a mains wiring system presumably throbbing with unwanted RF
is unable to pick up anything untoward unless I hold it within about a
foot of one of the homeplug devices. It picks up more rubbish from my
TV and from further away, and I haven't heard of any campaigns to ban
TVs because they interfere with the rights of radio hams...

Rod.
  #16  
Old November 8th 16, 09:15 AM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Andy Burns[_12_]
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Posts: 380
Default Is access to all frequencies for listening a human right?

Roderick Stewart wrote:

My own cursory experiments would seem to suggest that this is the
case, as a portable shortwave radio inside my house, i.e. right in the
middle of a mains wiring system presumably throbbing with unwanted RF
is unable to pick up anything untoward unless I hold it within about a
foot of one of the homeplug devices.


I don't have any homeplugs, but last time I checked with a LW/MW radio,
it had to be within a foot or so of various "evil" LED lamps to be affected.

I do have some wiring to a light on a PIR sensor which runs close to my
phone wiring and causes a noticeable dip in VDSL SNR when lit, but my
line has sufficient headroom so it just swaps a few frequency bins and
speed isn't affected.

  #17  
Old November 8th 16, 09:34 AM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Ian Jackson[_5_]
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Posts: 42
Default Is access to all frequencies for listening a human right?

In message , Roderick
Stewart writes
On Mon, 7 Nov 2016 20:30:37 +0000, Andy Burns
wrote:

the Radio Society of Great Britain has been campaigning
about these for many years.


The stable door is swinging in the breeze and the horse is no longer in
sight ...


And, with no disrespect intended to the RSGB, if radio hams are the
only people affected, it's extremely unlikely anyone will even bother
to send out a search party for that horse.

My own cursory experiments would seem to suggest that this is the
case, as a portable shortwave radio inside my house, i.e. right in the
middle of a mains wiring system presumably throbbing with unwanted RF
is unable to pick up anything untoward unless I hold it within about a
foot of one of the homeplug devices. It picks up more rubbish from my
TV and from further away, and I haven't heard of any campaigns to ban
TVs because they interfere with the rights of radio hams...

You are overlooking that the fact that interference from TV sets (and
all sorts of things) CAN (technically) be fixed at source. Interference
from signals transmitted over the mains wiring simply CAN'T.
--
Ian
  #18  
Old November 8th 16, 10:32 AM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
R. Mark Clayton[_2_]
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Posts: 512
Default Is access to all frequencies for listening a human right?

On Monday, 7 November 2016 08:21:02 UTC, Brian Gaff wrote:
I think it should be. At the moment there are so many devices that either
due to poor design or the way they operate, which pollute the airwaves that
its a scandal
Back in the old days we just had badly suppressed cars and motors, arcing
insulators on pylons, some TVs that kicked out harmonics from internal
oscillators, and welders.
These could be off or not affecting very many people and in the main were
suppressible.
Nowadays we seem to have no qualms about designing devices that use the
mains supply as transmission lines by brute force over great areas of
spectrum, leading to huge amounts of leakage of ticking noises whistles and
general noises.
There is the nasty poorly designed switch mode power supply or charger, the
TV displays that radiate hugely, the wireless or otherwise routers with
nasty carriers whose harmonics are ridiculously strong being radiated by
even wired networks, and the list goes on.
Now of these the powerline adaptors tend to have holes in their radiation
at ham bands, though, not all of them but what about the shortwave broadcast
bands?No of course not since this would mean there is not enough bandwidth
left for the purpose of transmitting high bit rate signals
Besides this still leaves you the other crap out there.
It does seem to me that we are sleepwalking into a world where no radio
frequencies can be used due to interference. I know I've said this before,
but surely here, in this century we should be able to fix this for the next
generation of devices?
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!


Joe public can only transmit on some very limited frequencies - citizen's band, certified transmitters in GSM, wi-fi etc. Other bands only with a license.

One can receive a lot more, but in theory listening in to the police and military is an offence.
  #19  
Old November 8th 16, 10:53 AM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Woody[_5_]
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Posts: 1,765
Default Is access to all frequencies for listening a human right?


"R. Mark Clayton" wrote in message
...
On Monday, 7 November 2016 08:21:02 UTC, Brian Gaff wrote:
I think it should be. At the moment there are so many devices that
either
due to poor design or the way they operate, which pollute the
airwaves that
its a scandal
Back in the old days we just had badly suppressed cars and motors,
arcing
insulators on pylons, some TVs that kicked out harmonics from
internal
oscillators, and welders.
These could be off or not affecting very many people and in the
main were
suppressible.
Nowadays we seem to have no qualms about designing devices that
use the
mains supply as transmission lines by brute force over great areas
of
spectrum, leading to huge amounts of leakage of ticking noises
whistles and
general noises.
There is the nasty poorly designed switch mode power supply or
charger, the
TV displays that radiate hugely, the wireless or otherwise routers
with
nasty carriers whose harmonics are ridiculously strong being
radiated by
even wired networks, and the list goes on.
Now of these the powerline adaptors tend to have holes in their
radiation
at ham bands, though, not all of them but what about the shortwave
broadcast
bands?No of course not since this would mean there is not enough
bandwidth
left for the purpose of transmitting high bit rate signals
Besides this still leaves you the other crap out there.
It does seem to me that we are sleepwalking into a world where no
radio
frequencies can be used due to interference. I know I've said this
before,
but surely here, in this century we should be able to fix this for
the next
generation of devices?
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!


Joe public can only transmit on some very limited frequencies -
citizen's band, certified transmitters in GSM, wi-fi etc. Other
bands only with a license.

One can receive a lot more, but in theory listening in to the police
and military is an offence.


Actually it is an offence to listen to any station not intended for
'public information, education, or entertainment' irrespective of
source without the permission of the licence holder or of the
Secretary of State.

But how can it be policed?


--
Woody

harrogate3 at ntlworld dot com


  #20  
Old November 8th 16, 11:21 AM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Ian Jackson[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 42
Default Is access to all frequencies for listening a human right?

In message , R.
Mark Clayton writes
On Monday, 7 November 2016 08:21:02 UTC, Brian Gaff wrote:
I think it should be. At the moment there are so many devices that either
due to poor design or the way they operate, which pollute the airwaves that
its a scandal
Brian




Joe public can only transmit on some very limited frequencies -
citizen's band, certified transmitters in GSM, wi-fi etc. Other bands
only with a license.

One can receive a lot more, but in theory listening in to the police
and military is an offence.


Actually, deliberately receiving ANYTHING you're not licensed for (or
which is not licence-free) is an offence. Anything you accidentally
receive must not be divulged to anyone other than appropriately
authorised persons.

Isn't life boring!
--
Ian
 




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