Op dinsdag, 13 december, 2011 om 11:30:37u +0100,
schreef Martin van Nederlands:

It works just as well using sea water

Sea water is saline and contains all sorts of other gunk,
including gold.

You mean the Lowlands.

After all, some provinces of Wallonie are quite "hilly" --
Liège (Luik/Lüttich) [governor Michel Foret (MR)] and Luxembourg
[governor Bernard Caprasse (CDH)], re les Ardennes et l'Eifel.

On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 00:35:13 +0000, The Other Mike
wrote:

My proposed system of pumped storage is to act as an energy reservoir
between power station and customer.

Oi! What do you mean, yours? I thought of this, then I discovered that
it had been thoughtof a acouple of years before, but the Japs had
beaten us all by thirty years or more.

problem with that is you'd need enormous reservoirs - and where would you
put them?

How about Surrey?

West Coast of the Highlands - no ****er around there and the
landowners will be suitably grateful for some income. Compulsorary
purchases of the ones who aren't (and I expect some opposition from
the nobs), but **** 'em.

Pumped storage only works efficiently when you have a large difference in
levels, which is why it's only done in mountainous regions such as Wales

Exactly so.

On Wed, 14 Dec 2011 02:00:59 +0000, wrote:

On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 00:35:13 +0000, The Other Mike
wrote:

My proposed system of pumped storage is to act as an energy reservoir
between power station and customer.

I wrote that. What I was referring to was an idea for energy storage not
by raising water to a height but by using somwething much denser. The
initial fantasy I had was raising the top section of a mountain with
hydraulic jacks and then recovering the energy when that section of the
mountain is allowed to drop down again. That impractical idea came from
the thought "why raise water up a mountain when you could store much
more energy by raising the mountain itself?".

It would not be impossible to construct a large mass of rock, concrete,
whatever, which could be used to store energy as potential energy.

My initial thought is to use hydraulic jacks to raise the mass. The
energy would then be recovered by releasing the hydraulic fluid through
turbines, the fluid being propelled by the mass.

Oi! What do you mean, yours? I thought of this, then I discovered that
it had been thoughtof a acouple of years before, but the Japs had
beaten us all by thirty years or more.

problem with that is you'd need enormous reservoirs - and where would you
put them?

How about Surrey?

West Coast of the Highlands - no ****er around there and the
landowners will be suitably grateful for some income. Compulsorary
purchases of the ones who aren't (and I expect some opposition from
the nobs), but **** 'em.

Pumped storage only works efficiently when you have a large difference in
levels, which is why it's only done in mountainous regions such as Wales

Exactly so.

--
Peter Duncanson
(in uk.tech.digital-tv)

Peter Duncanson wrote:
It would not be impossible to construct a large mass of rock,
concrete, whatever, which could be used to store energy as potential
energy.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underfall_Yard - scroll down to 'Hydraulic
accumulator'.

André Coutanche

On Wed, 14 Dec 2011 11:51:48 -0000, "André Coutanche"
wrote:

Peter Duncanson wrote:
It would not be impossible to construct a large mass of rock,
concrete, whatever, which could be used to store energy as potential
energy.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underfall_Yard - scroll down to 'Hydraulic
accumulator'.

Yes. That stores energy by raising water. I'm talking about storing
energy by raising something solid. I'm assuming that a hydraulic system
would be used to raise the solid rather than using a system of gears,
lever, racks, etc.


--
Peter Duncanson
(in uk.tech.digital-tv)

Peter Duncanson wrote:
On Wed, 14 Dec 2011 11:51:48 -0000, "André Coutanche" wrote:

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underfall_Yard - scroll down to
'Hydraulic accumulator'.

Yes. That stores energy by raising water. I'm talking about storing
energy by raising something solid. I'm assuming that a hydraulic
system would be used to raise the solid rather than using a system of
gears, lever, racks, etc.

Ah - it's perhaps misleading. It raises a dirty great weight so as to store
energy to provide pressure for the hydraulic system (which powered swing
bridges, lock gates, cranes etc. around the docks).

It's *almost* what you were proposing, except that releasing the energy of
the raised weight pressurises the pipes rather than generates electricity.

André Coutanche

On Wednesday, December 14th, 2011, at 09:54:19 +0100,
our favorite Martin demanded:

and how does that effect it's ability to drive a turbine?

The turbine gets clogged up with all the gunk (eg kelp).

Is salt water more or less corrosive towards the plumbing
(pipes and turbine blades) than fresh water?

I was not inferring that it could not be done -- I was
suggesting that it would be more expensive to build and
maintain.

Op woensdag, 14 december, 2011, om 17:12:15u +0100,
schreef Martin van Nederlands:

Ask the company in France that generates electricity using sea water
flowing through turbines in a barrage.

From Hitachi Review (1998), Volume 47, Number 5

Development of Pump Turbine for Seawater Pumped-Storage Power Plant
by Tetsuo Fujihara, Haruo Imano, Katsuhiro Oshima

QUOTE

Seawater pump turbines are used under the condition where
the corrosion environment is noticeably severe, rather than
conventional river water pump turbines.

In addition, pump turbines have many narrow spaces between parts
and their major parts are embedded, so that it would be very
difficult to apply proper corrosion prevention measures.

This problem cannot be solved only by conventional corrosion-preventive
engineering.

UNQUOTE

Full paper at http://www.hitachi.COM/rev/1998/revoct98/r4_108.pdf

which includes a birds eye view photograph of the upper dam and
reservoir and the pumped storage building.

On 14/12/2011 17:01, J G Miller wrote:
This problem cannot be solved only by conventional corrosion-preventive
engineering.

They haven't read Clarke's Laws. Especially no. 1

"When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is
possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is
impossible, he is very probably wrong."

Oh hang on, yes they have. At the other end of the paper it says

"This paper dealt with the structural features of the pump turbine for
seawater pumped-storage, corrosion preventive measures, and measures for
preventing the adhesion of marine organisms. When anti-corrosion
engineering for seawater pump turbines is established, the limitations
on location of pumped-storage power plants are remarkably relaxed, and
an increase in the demand for pumped-storage power plants expected."

It looks as if they reckon they've pretty well cracked it. And Hitachi
are doubtless commercially interested.

Andy

On Wednesday, December 14th, 2011, at 20:50:59h +0000, Andy Champ wrote:

On 14/12/2011 17:01, J G Miller wrote:
This problem cannot be solved only by conventional
corrosion-preventive engineering.

They haven't read Clarke's Laws. Especially no. 1

"When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is
possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is
impossible, he is very probably wrong."

Maybe you missed the word "only"?

Perhaps it should have been more clearly stated as --

"Conventional corrosion-preventive engineering alone cannot
solve the problem".

It looks as if they reckon they've pretty well cracked it.

I think that was the major purpose of their study.

And Hitachi are doubtless commercially interested.

Yes, since although perhaps one tends to think
of Hitachi as an electronics company, it is has a long
history of involvement in electrical and mechanical engineering.

http://www.hitachi.COM/environment/showcase/speco_factory/jp/hes/index.html

It seems that they find wind and solar power suitable sources of
renewable power for their factory.