In article , Bob Latham
wrote:
In article , Jim Lesurf
wrote:
In article , Bob Latham
wrote:

If someone asked me to decide between two hi-fi items using
classical music (which I have a great deal of) I wouldn't even
bother to turn up as I know I couldn't do it.

Thats fine if you aren't working as a 'reviewer' in a magzine trying
to tell people about the capability of equipment. Your choices are
your business if you aren't giving your conclusions to anyone else
whose tastes, hearing, etc, may differ from yours.

Also fine if you are just deciding to stay within your own 'comfort
zone' of familiarity as being the best place for making your own
personal decisions. However professional reviews aren't just for the
sake of the reviewer - or at least should not be so limited.

I'm quite happy to accept that I would not be suitable to offer much
advice regarding a product for classical listening. However, it would be
IMHO no worse than me buying a product based on your classical
evaluation of a product. For example, you use ESL63s

ESL63s, ESL988s, and a pair of Spendor LS3/5As. Have various other
speakers, but these are the ones in daily use an I would not be without.

I believe. I am aware of their merits and I appreciate their clever
design. Never the less, they would be totally unsuitable for me,
something would go bang in a week and the last time I heard a pair I was
expecting a sound on the thin side with no deep bass, not a bit of it.
What I heard shocked me as it was the top end that I found difficulty
with - I didn't think there was any.

That reaction is quite common for people who mainly listen to rock/pop and
who use conventional dynamic speakers. There are various reasons for it.
However it can change with exposure.

Many conventional dynamic speakers have quite uneven treble responses which
also have wildly complex frequency-dependent directional patterns. This
means the HF responses you see plotted 'on axis' (curious term for
multi-unit systems) are quite misleading. The measurements are also often
frequency-smoothed.

Peaky responses of that kind are quite 'attention grabbing' when you play a
lot of pop/rock music. Bear in mind that to a large extent rock and pop
have developed to 'sound good' on conventional speakers and there often is
no 'original sound' just the need to impress the listener using speakers.

The 'lack of treble' is actually a flatter treble response, taking away the
peaks you are accustomed to. Just like the start of this thread where
'boom' is used as 'bass' so conventional speakers tend to use 'ting'
resonances to fill in the treble in their uneven responses (in both
frequency and direction) and this makes the sound more noticable even at
the same frequency-averaged level.

People recording/broadcasting classical acoustic music tend to use flatter
and better controlled speakers equivalent in this respect to the LS series
and the ESLs.


Honestly for me /most/ classical is so 'mid range' and undemanding I
wouldn't bother. What is more, even though it probably wouldn't be
admitted, the vast majority of people would be same I suspect.

Surprised that you think items by composers as diverse as Prokofiev,
PMD, Bach, Messiaen, Neilsen, Part, and all kinds of others, or all
kinds of totally different sounding things on a wide range of
instruments are all 'mid range', from Britten's "Prince of the
Pagodas" to early music on Crumhorns.[1] But again, your personal
preferences and limitations are your business I accept.

Two of those I've never heard of which I suppose was your intention

My intention was to make you think more about your "most" and bring out
that what may be "most" of what you listen to may not be "most" of actual
classical music. BTW which ones hadn't you heard about?


and Messiaen is only for masochists and show offs surely.

Well, I do find it odd when I've encountered people who say his music is
wonderful and they then slag off someone like Schumann or Rubbra. :-)

However I do enjoy some of his music, and struggle to be interested in
other works. So I like his organ pieces very much (and Alain's) but tend to
find my mind wanders with some other things. All depends on my mood and
state of mind, though. As with other kinds of music. Sometimes I enjoy some
Jazz, other times I find the same piece boring or annoying. Me that
changes, not the music.


I have around 500 classical CDs. not a vast amount I agree but a good
chunk. Very few of mine offer much of a challenge to kit IMHO for
aspects that appeal to me.

That is fine in the context of being your personal preferences and
circumstances. But it may simple tell us that your taste/experience of
classical music would not be sufficient to act as a 'reviewer' of equipment
for anyone who might want to play a wider/different range. That was the
basis of my initial comments. That when reviewers *just* use pop/rock they
may not be providing a basis for those who like other things and may be
missing aspects of performance vital for some readers.


Why only use a hammer when there are other tools in the toolkit? But
if you like to use a hammer for every job, that's you choice. fair
enough.
:-)

Look, I'm from near Birmingham, have you not heard of the brummagem
screwdriver? :-)

Yes. Used one more than once. I'm not much good at DIY or mechanical work.
:-)

A watchmaker's screwdriver can't do every job either.

Personally, I find classical acoustic music useful for assessing
things like depth in imaging and how faithfully it reproduces
'solidity' of acoustics and the hall sound. And massed strings useful
for detecting things like crossover suckout in speakers or the
presence of other notches or peaks in the spatial patterns of
speakers. If you don't, or don't care, fine for you. But so far as I
know none of the commercial magazines are aimed *only* at one of the
two of us!

Fair enough.

For me "faithful reproduction" is the only sensible design goal but not
the best purchasing goal, enjoyment is.

The difficulty with that is when you listen to music like concert
broadcasts on R3 and similar 'acoustic events' the "faithful reproduction"
is the crucial goal for the reproduction chain. Anything else becomes 'rose
tinted glasses' that they colour everything pink and narrow down the range
of experience. Nice that some things are pink. But not everything - unless
you are Barbara Cartland. :-)

I have said to you before that I have never heard a good image on
classical not on even the exotic kit in exhibitions or shop demo rooms.
I suspect what you're talking about with imaging is totally different to
me.

For whatever reason this is something that some people hear, and others
don't. I have no real idea why. It may be a matter of 'discovering' it, or
it may be inherent. For all I know the 'ability' to hear realistic and
solid imaging may need the listener to have 'easily fooled' hearing in some
way. But once you hear it, it is worth effort to maintain as it so enhances
the experience with 'acoustic source' material from locations with suitable
acoustics.

I'm stunned by the image on some Diana Krall and Katie Melua tracks,
they're in the room with me locked solid and nowhere near the speakers.

Now think of multiplying that experience to really hear the players of the
orchestra clearly laid out in space in front of you with a convencing sense
of distance and location.

Slainte,

[1] BTW I also regard a lot of Indian/Japanese/etc music 'classical'
and think it should also be used some of the time. A wider toolkit and
catering for a wider range of experience seems preferrable to me. May
also help people to discover things they didn't know they would enjoy.
But that is another issue, I guess... :-)

Indian food is great, the music, not for me thanks.

How much have you tried? For example, have you tried the DGG 3CD set of
Shankar and various others? This also has a disc with him playing with some
Japanese musicians to combine Indian and Japanese musical sounds. I find it
very enjoyable as music. It also delivers some remarkable acoustic sounds.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html